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Thread: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the U.S

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    MSNBC makes a 1 letter mistake = understandable gaffe, no problem.
    Fox makes a 1 letter mistake = OMG so dumbz!
    Oh dear.......go and look at the map again - it isn't a one letter mistake.

    Iran is labeled perfectly correctly

    OMG so dumbz indeed!

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Why?

    If you screw up someone's name like that, I could say it "denotes a lack of racial sensitivity" and that it "takes actual effort to mislabel a name to the severity of a racial slur".

    Both are typos, yet to suit our silly purposes we grant such likely simple errors immense amounts of power. How often have you done something similar with regard to Iran or Iraq or any other object or word with similar spellings? I bet it was often enough.

    errrr....let me give you a hint - Where is Egypt?

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    they didn't call Iraq Iran, they stuck EGYPT in there
    Ooops - sorry. didn't see this before posting

    Glad to see somebody picked this up

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyloveafight View Post
    Oh dear.......go and look at the map again - it isn't a one letter mistake.

    Iran is labeled perfectly correctly

    OMG so dumbz indeed!
    Completely true. I've seen that picture before so I didn't bother to do more than glance at it this time, and just went from there.

    FWIW, Pogue was the one who started us on the path to looking like dumbasses.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Nate Silver uses this poll as part of his takedown of this pollster. There's more than one article about Strategic Vision, LLC (which is apparently not the same as another, more reputable Strategic Vision something else, maybe Corp?), but this one is relevant to this thread:


    Are Oklahoma Students Really This Dumb? Or Is Strategic Vision Really This Stupid?
    by Nate Silver @ 8:26 PM


    (snip ... )

    Only 2.8 percent of Oklahoma's high school students passed the test, claim OCPA and Strategic Vision, which is defined by having gotten at least 6 of the 10 answers right. Moreover, the results to some particular questions were strikingly low. Ostensibly, only 23 percent of the students correctly identified George Washington as the first President, and only 43 percent correctly named the Democrats and Republicans as the two major political parties (11 percent of the students, COPA and Strategic Vision claim, provided the answer "Communist and Republican").

    For me, some of these results don't pass the smell test. I agree that public schooling in the United States needs to be improved, particularly in the areas of government and citizenship. But only 23 percent of high school students in Oklahoma knew that George Washington was the first President? Really? I have difficulty accepting that claim at face value. In 2008, 68 percent of Oklahoma fifth graders passed the Oklahoma Core Curriculum Social Studies Test. You can read some of the questions on that test beginning on page 50 of this PDF; they're generally quite a bit more difficult than the ones that Strategic Vision asks. (For instance, "Which was the most profitable export of the Jamestown settlement?" and "Which group would most likely agree with ideas presented in Common Sense?"). So either those smart fifth graders were really forgetful by the time they got to high school, or there's something very wrong with this poll.

    more ...

    FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Are Oklahoma Students Really This Dumb? Or Is Strategic Vision Really This Stupid?

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    I think you are missing the point... people **** with pollsters. Then people, such as the OP, actually take these results seriously. I find it hard to believe that any high school student without a mental disorder thinks that our current President was also our first President.

    Looks like EgoffTib was the only poster in the thread with any common sense! These results are f'ing CRAZY. I hope no state in the country has students, or adults, this dumb.

    Well, except for Jay Leno's Jay Walking citizens.



    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by 75Greeno View Post
    where is this statistic coming from it just sounds like a lie
    Quote Originally Posted by sazerac View Post
    We'd have laughed at these questions by 5th or 6th grade.

    But so would my nephews who are in high school. I think most students know who the first president was.
    I take it back 75Greeno and sazerac were onto something fishy too ...
    Last edited by jackalope; 09-27-09 at 07:05 PM.

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    Nate Silver uses this poll as part of his takedown of this pollster. There's more than one article about Strategic Vision, LLC (which is apparently not the same as another, more reputable Strategic Vision something else, maybe Corp?), but this one is relevant to this thread:
    For me, some of these results don't pass the smell test. I agree that public schooling in the United States needs to be improved, particularly in the areas of government and citizenship. But only 23 percent of high school students in Oklahoma knew that George Washington was the first President? Really? I have difficulty accepting that claim at face value. In 2008, 68 percent of Oklahoma fifth graders passed the Oklahoma Core Curriculum Social Studies Test. You can read some of the questions on that test beginning on page 50 of this PDF; they're generally quite a bit more difficult than the ones that Strategic Vision asks. (For instance, "Which was the most profitable export of the Jamestown settlement?" and "Which group would most likely agree with ideas presented in Common Sense?"). So either those smart fifth graders were really forgetful by the time they got to high school, or there's something very wrong with this poll.
    I think he's strongly implying that the answer to this question is the latter...but I don't see why one should assume that. Is his first hypothesis (which he presumably made sarcastically) - that those smart fifth graders were really forgetful by the time they got to high school - really so implausible? That makes perfect sense to me. Younger kids are more receptive to learning than older kids. For most people, their interest in their own education declines with age.

    Has anyone here ever watched "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?" It's very sad. The idea that fifth graders could pass their social studies exams, and high schoolers wouldn't know George Washington was the first president, does not seem all that implausible to me.
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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I think he's strongly implying that the answer to this question is the latter...but I don't see why one should assume that. Is his first hypothesis (which he presumably made sarcastically) - that those smart fifth graders were really forgetful by the time they got to high school - really so implausible? That makes perfect sense to me. Younger kids are more receptive to learning than older kids. For most people, their interest in their own education declines with age.

    Has anyone here ever watched "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?" It's very sad. The idea that fifth graders could pass their social studies exams, and high schoolers wouldn't know George Washington was the first president, does not seem all that implausible to me.
    Nate Silver actually has a number of articles on this pollster out. The pollster was given a letter of censure by the professional association of pollsters. In one of them, he goes through more in-depth reasons why this poll stretches the boundaries of the imagination. One of the reasons that sticks out to me is that there wasn't a single OK student respondent who even got 8 answers correct, never mind all of them. He said something like, isn't there a single AP History student, or really smart nerd, anywhere in the poll sample?

    Here's the first article. You can follow links in the article to source material:


    A Few More Questions for a Sketchy Pollster

    by Nate Silver @ 3:05 PM
    Bookmark and Share Share This Content

    AAPOR, the American Association for Public Opinion Research, yesterday reprimanded Atlanta-based PR firm Strategic Vision, LLC for failing to disclose even basic information about their political polls:

    For more than one year, AAPOR was unable to obtain the following basic information about Strategic Vision LLC’s polling in New Hampshire and Wisconsin: who sponsored the survey; who conducted it; a description of the underlying sampling frame; an accounting of how “likely voters” were identified and selected; response rates; and a description of any weighting or estimating procedures used.

    This is a highly unusual step for AAPOR, which tends to be a conservative (lower-case 'c') organization that would not ordinarily be inclined to call out an individual pollster by name. But Strategic Vision brought the criticism entirely upon themselves, being the only one of 21 polling firms contacted by the organization that did not respond to the request, in spite of having literally months' worth of time to do so. As Mark Blumenthal notes, moreover, this is hardly an isolated incident: Strategic Vision has a long history of failing to disclose anything at all about their methodology, obfuscating around repeated requests from places like the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Nor is Strategic Vision any better about disclosing such information to the general public. By contrast, they never provide any demographic detail, cross-tabulations, methodological disclosure, or other supporting evidence in conjunction with their polls.

    more ...

    FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: A Few More Questions for a Sketchy Pollster

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeFromWI View Post
    See it at 75 Percent of Oklahoma Students Can't Name the First President.

    This real folks, and no one seems to mind....

    The majority of Americans are against health care reform you say?

    The majority of Americans don't know who George Washington is either...

    I got a kick out of this anectode regarding the students in one of the most conservative states in America as well:

    "About 92 percent of the people who take the citizenship test pass on their first try, according to immigration service data. However, Oklahoma students did not fare as well. Only about 3 percent of the students surveyed would have passed the citizenship test."

    11 percent also thought the two major political parties in the US were Communists and Republicans. Source: Here
    A telling analogy, I remember all the supposed "opposition" to the Iraqi war, I saw a poll a few years ago....only 17% of adults in America could even find Iraq on a world map.

    Public education sure is a great argument for public health care, huh?

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    Re: 75 Percent of Oklahoma High School Students Can't Name the First President of the

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/us/27history.html

    Who Is To Blame for American Teens Ignorant of History and Literature?

    ........Beginning in the sixties, the mission of the schools has been redefined. The institutions training our teachers have come to see their job not as transmitting our culture but as changing it, not as passing on an understanding of the history and traditions of a democratic United States of America but as pursuing an agenda of far-left social activism. The U.S. - oppressive, racist, sexist, homophobic - needs to be set on the path toward greater equality, not just of opportunity but of results. Equality should be enforced by legislation if necessary, and the elitism of demands for excellence should be scrapped.

    For the past half century this has been the message young people who want to be teachers have been getting along with a curriculum heavy on pedagogical methods and light on subject matters - a lot of emphasis on how to teach and very little knowledge of anything to teach. Curriculum has taken a back seat to methodology - it doesn't matter what children read as long as they can handle the vocabulary well enough to be moved on to the next grade. And with fads like "whole language" taking the place of phonics, this meant simple "basic readers" indeed............
    The above article has its good points and bad ones. I agree with the notion that too much time has been spent on developing theories of teaching, and not on teaching substance. The comment about "social justice" in the article is misleading in its attempt to paraphrase the NCATE's policy, but is probably dead on when describing how it implements it's attempt to be fair to all students with regards to race, ethnicity, socioeconomic background. Frankly I think the attempt to be "fair" has caused more problems than it has solved. Implimenting fair policy became more important than the content taught. Unequal achievement was construed as a poor implimentation of policy, and the futzing around with teaching methods became more important than other factors such as the tried and true, individual student ability and educational priority within the family.
    Last edited by American; 09-28-09 at 01:41 PM.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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