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Thread: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I could also try to explain the difference between causation and correlation, but it appears that would be a losing battle as well.
    Who said anything about Clinton raising taxes spurring the economy?

    I made no claims about the causation of the Clinton economic boom.

    Rather it's you making strawmen.....Boom! You knocked that strawman down...feel better?
    Last edited by dragondad; 09-17-09 at 06:43 AM.

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    Yes it's proved because you say it is!

    I think I've read a version if this right wing argument five times today.

    The old standby...."No! You are wrong"...argument
    This is the last time I'll try.

    You're arguing that because the revenue from this tax is "going back out into the economy," it must thus have "no net effect on the economy." The falsity of this claim is manifestly obvious to anyone who spends 30 seconds thinking about it.

    The federal budget collects revenues through taxes and "sends it back out into the economy" via spending/redistribution. If we ignore deficits for the purpose of this hypothetical, we can assume that the revenue coming in is thus going back out into the economy, much like you claim will happen with cap and trade.

    Now, the million dollar question - do you really think that so long as all the money coming in via taxes goes back out in some other form, there is no way that the collection of that revenue can have any effect on the economy?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This is the last time I'll try.

    You're arguing that because the revenue from this tax is "going back out into the economy," it must thus have "no net effect on the economy." The falsity of this claim is manifestly obvious to anyone who spends 30 seconds thinking about it.

    The federal budget collects revenues through taxes and "sends it back out into the economy" via spending/redistribution. If we ignore deficits for the purpose of this hypothetical, we can assume that the revenue coming in is thus going back out into the economy, much like you claim will happen with cap and trade.

    Now, the million dollar question - do you really think that so long as all the money coming in via taxes goes back out in some other form, there is no way that the collection of that revenue can have any effect on the economy?
    Could you spare us the Socratic method and get to the point?. And either post your credentials as an economist or link to an objective source who makes your same argument? I can list scores of objective sources that show tax rates do not effect the economy one way or the another.

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    Could you spare us the Socratic method and get to the point?
    I think I pretty clearly explained my point.

    And either post your credentials as an economist or link to an objective source who makes your same argument?
    I don't think I really need to go to this length to support my incredibly basic point.

    I can list scores of objective sources that show tax rates do not effect the economy one way or the another.
    I know they don't effect the economy, but they certainly affect it. Are you arguing that if the average tax rate were bumped to 70% or dropped to 5% tomorrow, there would be no effect on the economy?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Where's that middle class tax cut?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year - Taking Liberties - CBS News

    The Obama administration has previously said that the cap and tax bill would only raise taxes by about $175 per household. As mentioned in the CBS article, this Treasury Dept. report was obtained only by a FOI filing by the Competitive Enterprise Institute. This report should have been public knowledge as soon as it was released.

    It would be very interesting to know what was redacted by Treasury and why they felt it was necessary to redact it.

    Since the Treasury Dept. is estimating the costs at TEN times what Obama claimed, I predict this will be the death knell for this boondoggle. With healthcare reform taking a beating due to its high costs, Cap & Tax was on a downhill slide anyway.

    Your thoughts?
    This administration and the willing morons in the Congress haven't even begun to tax the American taxpayers into oblivion. Anyone want to guess how much it will take to pay down the current deficit and US debt?

    US Debt is about $12 trillion and the deficit heading up beyond $1.6 trillion.

    If you spent $372 MILLION every day for 100 years you still would not have paid for this.

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    From your own source:

    ""Even if a 100 percent auction was a live legislative proposal, which it's not, that math ignores the redistribution of revenue back to consumers. It only looks at one side of the balance sheet. It would only be true if you think the Administration was going to pile all the cash on the White House lawn and set it on fire.""

    Yes what are they going to do with the money? Help pay off our National debt? Use it offset income taxes which are not sufficient to pay our bills now?

    Right wingers are the biggest dead beats I know of.

    They know for a fact we are not paying our bills yet they gripe about paying additional taxes to fund government. With this "tax" it raises revenue, helps the enviroment, and encourages energy conservation, and less dependece of foreign oil.

    They're like little spoiled children....any small sacrifice whatsoever on the part of Americans to pay fully for their goverment sends them into hissy fits.
    I have to laugh at the uninformed attempting to lecture on economics 101.

    Your rabid hyperbolic hyper partisan rhetoric aside; one would have to have the education of a 3rd grader to think that by stealing money from those who produce income and re-distribute it to those who produce nothing will spur economic activity.

    But alas, that is the mental state of the current President and the morons that currently infest the congress with their economy busting stupidity.

    Economics should become a required course for High School just like math and English.

    Here’s what Obama and the morons in the Democrat Party argued to pass the “porculus” bill that has done NOTHING to stem the rate of unemployment and spur anything that could be hyperbolically claimed as a recovery:

    Imagine if you will that there is this vast lake we call the economy; Democrats are dipping their buckets into one side of the lake, walking to the other side and with great fanfare pouring the water back into the lake while claiming they are raising the lakes level.

    It’s idiotic, it’s simplistic and even a small child can see through these attempts as doing NOTHING to increase economic activity and job creation. It is equally stupid to think that by Government involvement deciding who the winners and losers will be in any economy that it will lead to growth.

    But alas, this is the child like simplistic ideas of the current President, this Administration and the current leadership in the congress.

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    If you knew about macroeconomics you would know that this revenue goes right back out into the economy.
    Oh my, this is truly hysterical coming from you!

    Tell me professor, what university did you attend to receive your economic degree?

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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    Oh that's just me and this crazy Nobel prize winner in economics ....don't mind us!

    You've got Glenn Beck on your side.


    Is Obama relying too much on tax cuts? - Paul Krugman Blog - NYTimes.com


    ""Other things equal, public investment is a much better way to provide economic stimulus than tax cuts, for two reasons. First, if the government spends money, that money is spent, helping support demand, whereas tax cuts may be largely saved. So public investment offers more bang for the buck.""
    Paul Krugman, former advisor to Enron, and a Liberal who proclaims: "I have always been a free-market Keynesian: I like free markets, but I want some government supervision to correct market failures and ensure stability."

    The notion that Keynesian theories have anything to do with free markets is laughable at best.

    Keynes theories have been all but proven wrong and only taught in Universities as an educational tool for how far economic theory has come from the Keynes days.

    Krugman is truly and intellectual midget how completely discounts the reality of supply and demand and discounts the "human behavior" element of economic activity to such a degree as to fall for the Keynes ideas as being "socially" more acceptable than real free markets.

    The ONLY thing you will get from the vast Government interventionism we see now is far worse economic repercussions in the future.

    It was Government interventionism that allowed the false bubble in the mortgage markets by demanding that those who cannot make their payments be allowed to borrow vast sums far in excess of their ability to play claiming that it was a RIGHT to own a home in America and any attempts to reign in the negligence of Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac were racist.

    Good lord, Krugman has the credibility of Al Sharpton.


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    Re: Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    Could you spare us the Socratic method and get to the point?. And either post your credentials as an economist or link to an objective source who makes your same argument? I can list scores of objective sources that show tax rates do not effect the economy one way or the another.
    I would love to see your credentials. I studied economics and finance and have an accounting degree from Cal State Fullerton University with 37 years experience in the real working world starting from the bottom working as a member of the Machinists union to the executive level and have yet to see a rational or sound economic argument for what the current Administration is doing.

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