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Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

I'm sorry that I'm not going to go back in the thread some 30+ pages to show the 3 relevant indicators of the REAL numbers...

A) The panoramic shot shows at least 250k (about 2and a half stadiums worth of people)
b) The time delay video from the rooftop... this shows a stream of people in a tight crowd from sidewalk to sidewalk that progressed out over at least 6-8 city blocks. I could place that in the 600-700kjust with how consistently thick the crowd of people is through the whole procession.
c) The tendancy for people to want to exaggerate / reduce numbers for whatever reasons, meaning that those that claim the highest numbers will tend to be exagerating for their benefit... to say it was 60-70thousand was just a laughably small estimate, that had to only been counting people in the area of the stage, since that seemed about the capacity of that area... but then you take that area and see that it was about a tenth of the area that was occupied.

So, I would go to a max of about 800k to account for places that weren't clearly shown because of angles, trees, and other obstructions. European media was saying in the 1.5 million, probably by asking the police their estimates... which actually would put media and organizaer estimates with a .5 discrepency... that almost makes me think the REAL number was between 1.25 - 1.75 million people... but I didn't count it like that, so I'm going based on the list of things.

Well I'm glad to hear that you're such an expert at determining crowd size from simply looking at photos. Or maybe it's telepathy? Did you just sense "the vibes" of all those millions of people:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:?
 
Well I'm glad to hear that you're such an expert at determining crowd size from simply looking at photos. Or maybe it's telepathy? Did you just sense "the vibes" of all those millions of people:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:?

When did I say I was an expert?? If anything I said that I was NOT an expert... it doesn't always take an expert to have common sense...
The common sense that the stream of people was probably around 40-50 people across... it doesn't take many rows deep to get 1000 people... and you can get a feel for the types of numbers watching the flow of people just going on for blocks and blocks... and that's only a few viewpoints...

If you believe that it was 60-70k of people... I'm sorry, but you clearly didn't see the whole picture.
 
Well I'm glad to hear that you're such an expert at determining crowd size from simply looking at photos. Or maybe it's telepathy? Did you just sense "the vibes" of all those millions of people:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:?

Now be fair. He calls his numbers an "estimate". He is not claiming he is right, only that he is making an estimate, and explains why. I happen to roughly agree with his estimate, despite being a liberal. Mine is more pure guess, but I think it is an educated guess. I would bet big money that there was more than 70k, but I would bet even more that there was not 3 million, not 2 million, not 1.5 million, or even 1 million. While I don't agree with the purpose of the march, I cannot deny that there was an absolute ton of people.

In my opinion, conservatives made two mistakes with this march. The first was in their hugely exaggerated number claims, which turned the story from the rally itself, and into an argument about numbers that makes them look bad. The second was that the organizers and protesters did not quickly and loudly condemn the more radical elements of the protest. This again shifted the topic away from the point of the rally and onto a topic where they simply will not look good.

While from a political standpoint I am glad they made these mistakes, on a more personal level I feel bad for the tens to hundreds of thousands of demonstrators who where exercising their rights in this country to protest and demonstrate whose message was lost due to the actions of the radical elements and poor leadership by the organizers.
 
Ex : an article I saw about a woman that died of swine flue... read the first two paragraphs and the woman died from deadly swine flu... read the last two paragraphs and the woman suffered respiratory illness, had been in and out of hospitals for years and had a previously weakened immune system (aka she died while infected with swine flu but not necessarily because of swine flu)

That is the case with every death article I've read on swine flue in the news.

It's almost as if someone is taking a good portion of deaths from different things and attributing them to swine flue.
 
In my opinion, conservatives made two mistakes with this march. The first was in their hugely exaggerated number claims, which turned the story from the rally itself, and into an argument about numbers that makes them look bad.

This was a total media screwup, both sides... that the number was such a drastic difference it creates a false debate... rather then talking about the issues, now we're left discussing the numbers of people.

I can promise you that while it may seem 'fringe' this is a growing movement... which is why glen beck is trying to takeover this movement and keep it as a 'republican' thing when ultimately it is a 'freedom' thing.

The second was that the organizers and protesters did not quickly and loudly condemn the more radical elements of the protest. This again shifted the topic away from the point of the rally and onto a topic where they simply will not look good.

Actually, the BIGGEST indication (IMO) of the success of this was that there was 0 arrests made... I'd have to see examples of what is being counted as 'radical elements' otherwise...

I've seen videos of on the street interviews, and while there were a few eccentrics and a couple that didn't seem to really know what they were protesting, but the majority that I saw had an understanding of the issue that drew them there.

While from a political standpoint I am glad they made these mistakes, on a more personal level I feel bad for the tens to hundreds of thousands of demonstrators who where exercising their rights in this country to protest and demonstrate whose message was lost due to the actions of the radical elements and poor leadership by the organizers.

I'm not sure what specifically you're talking about in terms of 'mistakes'... the biggest problem is that glen beck is attempting to co-opt a legitimate movement.... the reality is that for the most part the people there were leaderless, they've booed down almost as many republicans as they have democrats.
 
If you believe that it was 60-70k of people... I'm sorry, but you clearly didn't see the whole picture.

The 60-70k estimate is from the DC fire dept....who have at least some expertise at this sort of thing. No offense, but I tend to trust their opinion over yours or Glenn Beck's in a matter such as this.
 
The 60-70k estimate is from the DC fire dept....who have at least some expertise at this sort of thing. No offense, but I tend to trust their opinion over yours or Glenn Beck's in a matter such as this.

What about the pictures?? That's what I based my estimate on... I've been to protests with about 20-30k of people, and those occupied a small fraction of the space with much less density of people.

NOTHING like this : [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sjvc6baor8"]YouTube - 9/12 Protest Washington DC Time Lapse Footage 0800 - 1130[/ame]
 
Umm your wrong there Hazlnut as I have stated the NPS has stated this was the largest March in DC History so are you calling the NPS Liers.

Dude....you are about a week behind. That quote was already proven to have been a fraud. Get with it.
 
Ya, I probably could have taken another angle... not that it matters, since I could have just explained how the end result of 'the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer' will end up with the 1% with all the ressources and the other 99% either dead or dependant on the 1%, and you'd have still called it 'paranoid'...

I could have went and dug out all sorts of sources, linked them, bill numbers, historical precedences where similar laws had been enacted allowing a dictator to take control, etc, etc... and you would have said 'no... I don't care about facts and figures, history and politics... you're just paranoid.' (and since I support the majority of those views that you would have found at the DC protest, you might have just added that I was racist too...

Which is funny... think about it :
taxes too high?? That's racist
Don't want socialized health care?? It's cause you're racist
Don't want to give up your guns ?? You must just not like black people.
Don't like having to walk through a naked body scanner at the airport?? R to the 'acist'

Tell me though, why SHOULD I care what you think of me when I'm just trying to present information (which if you showed any inclination of actually looking into, I might have made the effort to source) and you're just trying to say that anyone that thinks that way is 'paranoid'??

cheers

Classic....the sequel.

America....^This is the voice of the right-wing opposition. See how reasonable and rational it is?
 
When did I say I was an expert?? If anything I said that I was NOT an expert... it doesn't always take an expert to have common sense...
The common sense that the stream of people was probably around 40-50 people across... it doesn't take many rows deep to get 1000 people... and you can get a feel for the types of numbers watching the flow of people just going on for blocks and blocks... and that's only a few viewpoints...

If you believe that it was 60-70k of people... I'm sorry, but you clearly didn't see the whole picture.

Except you can see that they only fill up about 1/4 of the mall. When completely full, the mall holds approx. 240k. Hmmmmm.... 1/4 of 240 is what?
60K.

The people claiming that there were much more than that are simply desperate to try to make their cause seem larger than it was...as a result they are making themselves and their "cause" look even more silly and irrelevant.
 
Except you can see that they only fill up about 1/4 of the mall. When completely full, the mall holds approx. 240k. Hmmmmm.... 1/4 of 240 is what?
60K.

The people claiming that there were much more than that are simply desperate to try to make their cause seem larger than it was...as a result they are making themselves and their "cause" look even more silly and irrelevant.

That's where we're having the problem... you think the protest was contained within the mall area... meanwhile looking at the time lapse video you can see it's side to side people for at least 7-8 blocks + cross streets (that you can't see as clearly how far), then the panoramic view where it's clear that the mall is pretty damn close to full, along with the adjacent intersections... + behind the film for several blocks... so that 60k estimate is absolutely ludicrous.

Classic....the sequel.

I wish you could formulate more than two word responses... and somehow seem as through you are confident that you are proving your own point somehow?? Sure

America....^This is the voice of the right-wing opposition. See how reasonable and rational it is?

Disneydude... get out of disneyland for a second... first crank in your gear : I'm NOT a right-wing person.

Clinton : Although I was entertained by the whole Lewinsky thing, I only barely got into politics, although with what I know of him now I probably would have hated him.
Bush : Bush was completely evil, although I'm still not 100% if he was an evil genius and actor, or so dumb that he couldn't tie his shoes without help. I decried virtually ALL of his policies especially after 9-11 when he was doing so much against the constitution, re: patriot act
Obama : I knew Obama was going to win against McCain about 3weeks before he was elected because the big banks funded Obama at a 4:1 rate over McCain. I wanted to give him a chance, but he's taken exactly everything that Bush has done and expanded on it.

So... how does that fit with your premise?
Seriously, how does that fit into your paradigm knowing that Obama is just as much of a tool of the business elite as Bush... if not even more under their control since he's got almost nothing but lobbyists in his presence?
Can't you see that Bush being such a moron made someone well spoken like Obama to take the reign and sell people on ideas like 'hope and change'??
 
What about the pictures??

The pictures are irrelevant....in the digital age the manipulation of photographs is entirely too easy and likely (not to mention the fact that the event organizers have already been busted trying to pass off a fake photo).

What is your problem with the DC fire dept. estimate? Do you think they have an agenda?
 
There were obviously hundreds of thousands of people there, I would guess a conservative estimate would be about 200 thousand, to 300.
 
There were obviously hundreds of thousands of people there, I would guess a conservative estimate would be about 200 thousand, to 300.

Apparently not so obvious to those with any actual experience estimating crowd size. Nice to know there are so many armchair authorities around though.
 
Apparently not so obvious to those with any actual experience estimating crowd size. Nice to know there are so many armchair authorities around though.

Good to know there are so many people that will refuse to accept any information contrary to what fox news or the new york times will say...

The pictures are irrelevant....in the digital age the manipulation of photographs is entirely too easy and likely (not to mention the fact that the event organizers have already been busted trying to pass off a fake photo).

What is your problem with the DC fire dept. estimate? Do you think they have an agenda?

Yes... digital manipulation... it was really 20 people at the even that just photoshopped each other hundres of thousands of times spanning 6-7 blocks + going into the cross-streets along the way.

Yes, film and video manipulation is possible, but it takes TIME to do that, and especially alot of time if you plan to do it well enough that it isn't plainly obvious even to the non-expert.

No, I don't think that the fire dept has an agenda, I just think they were ONLY counting the people directly in the area of the stage.

What's your problem with accepting something that's plainly obvious in photo and video sources??? Which you clearly won't even look at for whatever reason... btw, just because you don't LIKE where evidence points does not mean you can simply claim manipulation... especially when you're making the claim with NO EVIDENCE to support that claim whatsoever.
 
It's a little shallow by the New Left to score points on whether it was "700,000 instead of a cool 1 Million" when indeed, it was their grand standing and thinly veiled insinuations that obliterated the National Park Service's resolve to measure the events. That last objective measurement of 'Marches on Washington' burned during their PR campaign to make the Million Man March become something more than another symbol of aborted political activism. To then turn around and say that the numbers are a little bit squiggly, is just silly. Of course they're squiggly, the New Left made them that way! That little factoid aside, I find the recent march as a great sign of how Obama has, if nothing else, done much to end the political antipathy in America. For both sides of the aisle. Now, while I am not a full out-n-out supporter of demonstrations - look how they failed the nascent New Left movement in the 60s and 70s - I can at least marvel at how the dynamics have changed in America: the majority is again feeling 'oppressed' by a selection of cultural and political elites, Fox News existence and success has shifted coverage in the MSM department, while to top it all off we have a seemingly heated political arena with moderates, antipathy, forced out.

To this young writer, the Fox News dominance is by far the most interesting for the simple fact that while 'Conservative' demonstrations have never, until now, received any attention beyond that of distinctly 'underground' or 'specialist' sources. Certainly we have all been over exposed to distinctly 'Leftist' demonstrations but to see real coverage for a conservative message is not only refreshing but inspiring. Remember the Kent State shootings, right? Does anyone know that in the months preceding the 'pukes' had fought the 'jocks' in their Common Area several times and were, actually, 'defeated?' Which, as an aside, is one of the reasons the 'pukes' felt they had to "escalate" the "contradictions." Doesn't it make you wonder how Fox News would've changed things? Would the public have had more facts to work with?

Everyone knows of Yoko Ono's and John Lennon's first exile to their bed at the Fairmont Hotel in Toronto, but why is this first bed for peace initiative the least remembered? The cartoonist Al Capp could be a reason; exchanging and largely 'winning' a heated exchange with John Lennon with a few well placed 'zingers' such as "It's not for me to forgive you, it's for your psychiatrist."

Remember the University of Buffalo? The Buffalo 9? That pinnacle of anti-ROTC and anti-Vietnam opinion? Does anyone remember that a general vote for the inclusion of the ROTC on the campus PASSED 1,245 to 783 (a landslide)? I could do this all day but my point is I'm not disparaging the brave actions of college students who felt honor bound to honor themselves in the political and college radical arena. What I am saying, however, is that for the first time we can what a organic conservative movement looks like with true coverage.

An exciting time for all, I admit.
 
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I don't personally hate on wikipedia, but I also don't like to use it as a sole source for anything, except for commonly known things / undebated information, if only because on any other issue, that it's user-generated content is used as a debunk of that website... in spite of the fact that the site is 'typically' accurate.
 
It's a little shallow by the New Left to score points on whether it was "700,000 instead of a cool 1 Million" when indeed, it was their grand standing and thinly veiled insinuations that obliterated the National Park Service's resolve to measure the events. That last objective measurement of 'Marches on Washington' burned during their PR campaign to make the Million Man March become something more than another symbol of aborted political activism.

I strongly suspect you would find that most right wingers where either indifferent or not happy with the "million Man March". Further, I strongly suspect that hardly any of us on the left thought that a lawsuit against the NPS was a good thing. You are making generalities that are not accurate, and then trying to blame us on the left that we only have one official source for the crowd size. Very disingenuous of you.
 
I strongly suspect you would find that most right wingers where either indifferent or not happy with the "million Man March". Further, I strongly suspect that hardly any of us on the left thought that a lawsuit against the NPS was a good thing. You are making generalities that are not accurate, and then trying to blame us on the left that we only have one official source for the crowd size. Very disingenuous of you.

I'm just ignoring every argument that finds traction in some sort of vast right-wing plot. Defending the National Park Service, calling Jesse Jackson or Farrakhan for their inflammatory remarks against the tried-and-true judicator of census taking at the events is hardly the same as having issues with the march itself. Any more statements that continue with that train of thought will be ignored on principle.

Regardless of what you have mind-read in your fellow New Leftists, a trait reserved only for Jimmy Carter, the fact remains that if he had no popular support or better yet, a responsible selection of people who objected to what he was saying the NPS would still be here today. A circle of 'yes-men' would have prevented the entire situation - how is that not accurate?

I leave it up to the public record to try and decided how "disingenuous" it is to have only one source, because the New Left ran the other out of business. I thought you guys were against monopolies?
 
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Except you can see that they only fill up about 1/4 of the mall. When completely full, the mall holds approx. 240k. Hmmmmm.... 1/4 of 240 is what?
60K.

The people claiming that there were much more than that are simply desperate to try to make their cause seem larger than it was...as a result they are making themselves and their "cause" look even more silly and irrelevant.
I was on the Mall during some AIDS thing and the radio stations were reporting a crowd of half a million. It wasn't even crowded. I think the Mall can hold well over a million. I was in Battery Park during the bicentennial and that crowd was estimated at a million. Battery Park is just a small fraction of the size of the Mall. These are all just estimates and I'm not claiming to know for sure but your estimate seems waaaaay off.
 
I'm just ignoring every argument that finds traction in some sort of vast right-wing plot. Defending the National Park Service, calling Jesse Jackson or Farrakhan for their inflammatory remarks against the tried-and-true judicator of census taking at the events is hardly the same as having issues with the march itself. Any more statements that continue with that train of thought will be ignored on principle.

So you bring up an issue, and are going to ignore any argument against what you proclaimed to be true. Oh, well done sir, well done!

Regardless of what you have mind-read in your fellow New Leftists, a trait reserved only for Jimmy Carter, the fact remains that if he had no popular support or better yet, a responsible selection of people who objected to what he was saying the NPS would still be here today. A circle of 'yes-men' would have prevented the entire situation - how is that not accurate?

WHy is it when I say what I believe to be true it is mindreading, but when you do it, it is supposed to matter? I would tend to think that since I am an actual part of the left, I might know a bit more about what we think than you do, especially since your ignorance on us is pretty clear.

I leave it up to the public record to try and decided how "disingenuous" it is to have only one source, because the New Left ran the other out of business. I thought you guys were against monopolies?

Again, "the New Left" did not such thing. One organization made a foolish lawsuit, and congress decided to keep similar controversies from happening. What you are doing is similar if I said that Republicans have fidelity troubles because a couple republican congressmen have been caught at affairs.
 
Take a close look at your own picture link dude.

Are you seriously going to try to argue that they are comparable? :doh

Even assuming that they by some chance were. When the mall is COMPLETELY filled it holds 240,000.

Why are you guys so desperately trying to inflate your numbers. It is making the cause look rather silly.

You know what? I didn't look into the "240,000" figure you gave, because it didn't matter; I wasn't offering any numbers. But looking around, I find that estimates for the capacity of the National Mall are over 1 million.

Where the "240,000" number comes from is probably the number of tickets given out for the Obama Inauguration.

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - National Mall to be open for Obama inauguration - Blogs from CNN.com

But let's break it down.

The size of the National Mall is 146 acres.

National Mall

146 acres is 6,359,760 square feet.

Imagine a crowd being 1 person for every 9 square feet -- which is actually a LOT of space between people.

That's 706,640 people in a loose crowd.

Now, let's take PA Ave and assume for this argument that it's 4x narrower than the mall.

A quarter of 706,640 is 176,660.

So, using your own estimate of 1/4 the size of the National Mall, and putting a 3x3 foot box around everyone, that shot of PA Ave should have nearly 180,000 people in it.

It certainly doesn't look to ME like all those people are walking 3 feet apart from each other, so it's quite reasonable to assume upwards of 200,000. In that shot alone. Based on your own comparison of 1/4 the size of the Mall.

That shot, of course, was only a snapshot of that moment, of a crowd continually moving forward, so it doesn't depict everyone who was there.
 
So you bring up an issue, and are going to ignore any argument against what you proclaimed to be true. Oh, well done sir, well done!

If there's any evidence that the New Left offered an apology to the NPS for their actions, I would love to hear it. As the public record stands, however - it was a perfect example of New Left radicalism using their place, gained rightfully or wrongly, as a way to demonize a very fair and balanced institution.

Ignoring claims that stipulate: defending the NPS for being moderate and for being a color-blind institution is somehow similar to being against the Million Man March's principles, is bad enough. Yet to continue by saying that both views are those held by the majority of 'them, the conservatives' is blindly radical to a whole new degree that no one, save you, is willing to take. For implied beneath that is can can be against the Million Man March, certainly, but you are using the shallow assumption that one would need to be a anti-black, sexist, fascist of some sort to be against them.

Which is why, in essence, I'm ignoring such statements. That the people who were defending the NPS were just a selection of rightist, anti-black male, fascists. Regardless of whether they had a record of being centrist, moderate people is not something that can be debated - it is literally, just too radical for rationality to affect.

WHy is it when I say what I believe to be true it is mindreading, but when you do it, it is supposed to matter? I would tend to think that since I am an actual part of the left, I might know a bit more about what we think than you do, especially since your ignorance on us is pretty clear.

There exists transcripts of an assortment of 'black leaders,' which are accessible to anyone with an internet connection, stating a wide assortment of statements that basically summarize "NPS is not suited for this role." Which leads me to believe, surprise, that the New Left supports the idea that the NPS should not conduct the census. Now, if those statements had been retracted, or if another vote had been held in the Democratically controlled Senate or House. I'd say you had a point, however - I'm working off the public record while you are offering nothing but what amounts to your personal opinion. Do you have any polls? Any studies?

Again, "the New Left" did not such thing. One organization made a foolish lawsuit, and congress decided to keep similar controversies from happening. What you are doing is similar if I said that Republicans have fidelity troubles because a couple republican congressmen have been caught at affairs.

This organization did not magically spring up, Congress did not arbitrarily decide to stop "similar controversies" from happening. They required support from their constituencies. Constituencies which were, decidedly, not rightist. Alas, no it is not for a multitude of reasons.
 
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