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Thread: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    In spite of the name, factcheck isn't the most reliable source... better then say wikkipedia, but it still has a bias.
    Don't hate on Wikipedia.

    Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica - CNET News
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    It's a little shallow by the New Left to score points on whether it was "700,000 instead of a cool 1 Million" when indeed, it was their grand standing and thinly veiled insinuations that obliterated the National Park Service's resolve to measure the events. That last objective measurement of 'Marches on Washington' burned during their PR campaign to make the Million Man March become something more than another symbol of aborted political activism. To then turn around and say that the numbers are a little bit squiggly, is just silly. Of course they're squiggly, the New Left made them that way! That little factoid aside, I find the recent march as a great sign of how Obama has, if nothing else, done much to end the political antipathy in America. For both sides of the aisle. Now, while I am not a full out-n-out supporter of demonstrations - look how they failed the nascent New Left movement in the 60s and 70s - I can at least marvel at how the dynamics have changed in America: the majority is again feeling 'oppressed' by a selection of cultural and political elites, Fox News existence and success has shifted coverage in the MSM department, while to top it all off we have a seemingly heated political arena with moderates, antipathy, forced out.

    To this young writer, the Fox News dominance is by far the most interesting for the simple fact that while 'Conservative' demonstrations have never, until now, received any attention beyond that of distinctly 'underground' or 'specialist' sources. Certainly we have all been over exposed to distinctly 'Leftist' demonstrations but to see real coverage for a conservative message is not only refreshing but inspiring. Remember the Kent State shootings, right? Does anyone know that in the months preceding the 'pukes' had fought the 'jocks' in their Common Area several times and were, actually, 'defeated?' Which, as an aside, is one of the reasons the 'pukes' felt they had to "escalate" the "contradictions." Doesn't it make you wonder how Fox News would've changed things? Would the public have had more facts to work with?

    Everyone knows of Yoko Ono's and John Lennon's first exile to their bed at the Fairmont Hotel in Toronto, but why is this first bed for peace initiative the least remembered? The cartoonist Al Capp could be a reason; exchanging and largely 'winning' a heated exchange with John Lennon with a few well placed 'zingers' such as "It's not for me to forgive you, it's for your psychiatrist."

    Remember the University of Buffalo? The Buffalo 9? That pinnacle of anti-ROTC and anti-Vietnam opinion? Does anyone remember that a general vote for the inclusion of the ROTC on the campus PASSED 1,245 to 783 (a landslide)? I could do this all day but my point is I'm not disparaging the brave actions of college students who felt honor bound to honor themselves in the political and college radical arena. What I am saying, however, is that for the first time we can what a organic conservative movement looks like with true coverage.

    An exciting time for all, I admit.
    Last edited by Metternich; 09-19-09 at 05:56 PM.

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    I don't personally hate on wikipedia, but I also don't like to use it as a sole source for anything, except for commonly known things / undebated information, if only because on any other issue, that it's user-generated content is used as a debunk of that website... in spite of the fact that the site is 'typically' accurate.

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Quote Originally Posted by Metternich View Post
    It's a little shallow by the New Left to score points on whether it was "700,000 instead of a cool 1 Million" when indeed, it was their grand standing and thinly veiled insinuations that obliterated the National Park Service's resolve to measure the events. That last objective measurement of 'Marches on Washington' burned during their PR campaign to make the Million Man March become something more than another symbol of aborted political activism.
    I strongly suspect you would find that most right wingers where either indifferent or not happy with the "million Man March". Further, I strongly suspect that hardly any of us on the left thought that a lawsuit against the NPS was a good thing. You are making generalities that are not accurate, and then trying to blame us on the left that we only have one official source for the crowd size. Very disingenuous of you.

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I strongly suspect you would find that most right wingers where either indifferent or not happy with the "million Man March". Further, I strongly suspect that hardly any of us on the left thought that a lawsuit against the NPS was a good thing. You are making generalities that are not accurate, and then trying to blame us on the left that we only have one official source for the crowd size. Very disingenuous of you.
    I'm just ignoring every argument that finds traction in some sort of vast right-wing plot. Defending the National Park Service, calling Jesse Jackson or Farrakhan for their inflammatory remarks against the tried-and-true judicator of census taking at the events is hardly the same as having issues with the march itself. Any more statements that continue with that train of thought will be ignored on principle.

    Regardless of what you have mind-read in your fellow New Leftists, a trait reserved only for Jimmy Carter, the fact remains that if he had no popular support or better yet, a responsible selection of people who objected to what he was saying the NPS would still be here today. A circle of 'yes-men' would have prevented the entire situation - how is that not accurate?

    I leave it up to the public record to try and decided how "disingenuous" it is to have only one source, because the New Left ran the other out of business. I thought you guys were against monopolies?
    Last edited by Metternich; 09-19-09 at 06:39 PM.

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Except you can see that they only fill up about 1/4 of the mall. When completely full, the mall holds approx. 240k. Hmmmmm.... 1/4 of 240 is what?
    60K.

    The people claiming that there were much more than that are simply desperate to try to make their cause seem larger than it was...as a result they are making themselves and their "cause" look even more silly and irrelevant.
    I was on the Mall during some AIDS thing and the radio stations were reporting a crowd of half a million. It wasn't even crowded. I think the Mall can hold well over a million. I was in Battery Park during the bicentennial and that crowd was estimated at a million. Battery Park is just a small fraction of the size of the Mall. These are all just estimates and I'm not claiming to know for sure but your estimate seems waaaaay off.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Quote Originally Posted by Metternich View Post
    I'm just ignoring every argument that finds traction in some sort of vast right-wing plot. Defending the National Park Service, calling Jesse Jackson or Farrakhan for their inflammatory remarks against the tried-and-true judicator of census taking at the events is hardly the same as having issues with the march itself. Any more statements that continue with that train of thought will be ignored on principle.
    So you bring up an issue, and are going to ignore any argument against what you proclaimed to be true. Oh, well done sir, well done!

    Regardless of what you have mind-read in your fellow New Leftists, a trait reserved only for Jimmy Carter, the fact remains that if he had no popular support or better yet, a responsible selection of people who objected to what he was saying the NPS would still be here today. A circle of 'yes-men' would have prevented the entire situation - how is that not accurate?
    WHy is it when I say what I believe to be true it is mindreading, but when you do it, it is supposed to matter? I would tend to think that since I am an actual part of the left, I might know a bit more about what we think than you do, especially since your ignorance on us is pretty clear.

    I leave it up to the public record to try and decided how "disingenuous" it is to have only one source, because the New Left ran the other out of business. I thought you guys were against monopolies?
    Again, "the New Left" did not such thing. One organization made a foolish lawsuit, and congress decided to keep similar controversies from happening. What you are doing is similar if I said that Republicans have fidelity troubles because a couple republican congressmen have been caught at affairs.

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Take a close look at your own picture link dude.

    Are you seriously going to try to argue that they are comparable?

    Even assuming that they by some chance were. When the mall is COMPLETELY filled it holds 240,000.

    Why are you guys so desperately trying to inflate your numbers. It is making the cause look rather silly.
    You know what? I didn't look into the "240,000" figure you gave, because it didn't matter; I wasn't offering any numbers. But looking around, I find that estimates for the capacity of the National Mall are over 1 million.

    Where the "240,000" number comes from is probably the number of tickets given out for the Obama Inauguration.

    CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - National Mall to be open for Obama inauguration - Blogs from CNN.com

    But let's break it down.

    The size of the National Mall is 146 acres.

    National Mall

    146 acres is 6,359,760 square feet.

    Imagine a crowd being 1 person for every 9 square feet -- which is actually a LOT of space between people.

    That's 706,640 people in a loose crowd.

    Now, let's take PA Ave and assume for this argument that it's 4x narrower than the mall.

    A quarter of 706,640 is 176,660.

    So, using your own estimate of 1/4 the size of the National Mall, and putting a 3x3 foot box around everyone, that shot of PA Ave should have nearly 180,000 people in it.

    It certainly doesn't look to ME like all those people are walking 3 feet apart from each other, so it's quite reasonable to assume upwards of 200,000. In that shot alone. Based on your own comparison of 1/4 the size of the Mall.

    That shot, of course, was only a snapshot of that moment, of a crowd continually moving forward, so it doesn't depict everyone who was there.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So you bring up an issue, and are going to ignore any argument against what you proclaimed to be true. Oh, well done sir, well done!
    If there's any evidence that the New Left offered an apology to the NPS for their actions, I would love to hear it. As the public record stands, however - it was a perfect example of New Left radicalism using their place, gained rightfully or wrongly, as a way to demonize a very fair and balanced institution.

    Ignoring claims that stipulate: defending the NPS for being moderate and for being a color-blind institution is somehow similar to being against the Million Man March's principles, is bad enough. Yet to continue by saying that both views are those held by the majority of 'them, the conservatives' is blindly radical to a whole new degree that no one, save you, is willing to take. For implied beneath that is can can be against the Million Man March, certainly, but you are using the shallow assumption that one would need to be a anti-black, sexist, fascist of some sort to be against them.

    Which is why, in essence, I'm ignoring such statements. That the people who were defending the NPS were just a selection of rightist, anti-black male, fascists. Regardless of whether they had a record of being centrist, moderate people is not something that can be debated - it is literally, just too radical for rationality to affect.

    WHy is it when I say what I believe to be true it is mindreading, but when you do it, it is supposed to matter? I would tend to think that since I am an actual part of the left, I might know a bit more about what we think than you do, especially since your ignorance on us is pretty clear.
    There exists transcripts of an assortment of 'black leaders,' which are accessible to anyone with an internet connection, stating a wide assortment of statements that basically summarize "NPS is not suited for this role." Which leads me to believe, surprise, that the New Left supports the idea that the NPS should not conduct the census. Now, if those statements had been retracted, or if another vote had been held in the Democratically controlled Senate or House. I'd say you had a point, however - I'm working off the public record while you are offering nothing but what amounts to your personal opinion. Do you have any polls? Any studies?

    Again, "the New Left" did not such thing. One organization made a foolish lawsuit, and congress decided to keep similar controversies from happening. What you are doing is similar if I said that Republicans have fidelity troubles because a couple republican congressmen have been caught at affairs.
    This organization did not magically spring up, Congress did not arbitrarily decide to stop "similar controversies" from happening. They required support from their constituencies. Constituencies which were, decidedly, not rightist. Alas, no it is not for a multitude of reasons.

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    Re: Tens of thousands attend broad protest of government in nation's capital

    Further analysis of crowd size estimation vis-a-vis the National Mall.

    Park service changes course, plans to offer crowd estimate - USATODAY.com
    Last edited by Harshaw; 09-19-09 at 08:23 PM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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