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Thread: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

  1. #81
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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're wrong. The lives of the men in a military unit are far more valuable to each other and to their leaders than anyone else's. Anyone that believes otherwise either has never served in the military, or was a piss poor soldier. Any leader that would allow his men to die, either to protect his career, to uphold some political agenda, or protect anyone outside his service is a piece of **** and doesn't deserve the wear the uniform.
    As has been stated, if the lives of Iraqis are worth nothing compared to ours, we wouldn't have troops on the ground in the first place; we'd just drop a nuke on them, or fly over and bomb the whole damned country into a smoking hole in the earth.
    We're actually attempting to accomplish something over there besides killing them all because they're worthless.
    Our troops are voluntarily risking their lives to protect civilians.
    Killing them kind of defeats the purpose of being there at all.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    As has been stated, if the lives of Iraqis are worth nothing compared to ours, we wouldn't have troops on the ground in the first place; we'd just drop a nuke on them, or fly over and bomb the whole damned country into a smoking hole in the earth.
    We're actually attempting to accomplish something over there besides killing them all because they're worthless.
    Our troops are voluntarily risking their lives to protect civilians.
    Killing them kind of defeats the purpose of being there at all.
    Sure, we're trying to accomplish something, however, if I were still in the service and leading soldiers in Iraq, my number one mission in life would be to bring as many of those men home alive as possible, regardless of anything else. I would insure that no more of my soldiers would die protecting those civilians than was absolutely neccessary. If I have to call in air, or arty to protect my men and a few civilians get wasted in the process, then the bad guys shouldn't have started a fire fight so close to a civilian area. That's who's at fault; the bad guys. If they don't start a fight amongst civilians, then civilians won't die in the battle. The whole, "hearts and minds", BS isn't going to do anything other than encourage the enemy to use civilians as cover, which will result in only two things: more dead civilians and more dead American soldiers.

    No one has ever said that the lives of those people are worthless. All anyone has ever stated, is that the lives of American soldiers take priority over anything else. When I was a fire team leader, squad leader, track commander, platoon sergeant, or 1st sergeant, there was no limit to what I would do to keep my men alive. If I had to bend a few rules to accomplish that mission, then so be it. Fortunately, I was never in that position. Make no mistake, though, had I been, then there would have been only one clear decision and I would have made it. If I was prosecuted for a crime and sent to prison, then I would do my time with a clear concience, because I made that decision in the utmost interest of the welfare of my men.

    Anyone that's never been there can never understand.
    Last edited by apdst; 09-15-09 at 11:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    No one has ever said that the lives of those people are worthless. All anyone has ever stated, is that the lives of American soldiers take priority over anything else.
    That's nice, and as a military mom, I selfishly appreciate it.
    Objectively, however, some Afghan woman's son is as important and valuable to her as mine is to me, and she's as valuable and important, in the grand scheme of things, as I am.
    And admittedly, we are kind of on her turf.
    An American soldier could get out, get home, and get safe, if he really, really wanted to.
    He could shoot himself in the foot, if he had to, in order to get out.
    Ultimately, he's there by choice.

    An Afghan civilian, on the other hand, can't get out.
    He can shoot himself in the foot, and he'll still be wandering around in a warzone with no foot.
    He's not there by choice. He's there because there isn't any way for him to leave.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    That's nice, and as a military mom, I selfishly appreciate it.
    Objectively, however, some Afghan woman's son is as important and valuable to her as mine is to me, and she's as valuable and important, in the grand scheme of things, as I am.
    And admittedly, we are kind of on her turf.
    An American soldier could get out, get home, and get safe, if he really, really wanted to.
    He could shoot himself in the foot, if he had to, in order to get out.
    Ultimately, he's there by choice.

    An Afghan civilian, on the other hand, can't get out.
    He can shoot himself in the foot, and he'll still be wandering around in a warzone with no foot.
    He's not there by choice. He's there because there isn't any way for him to leave.

    That Afghan mom needs to get out there and kick some ass, when the bad guys position themselves too close to her home and her family. If she doesn't then either her family isn't worth that much to her, or she's in collusion with the enemy. The latter makes her the enemy as well and therefore a legit target.

    I think the biggest misconception here, is that US troops aren't actively targetting civilians. The subject is collateral damage, which is the nature of warfare. If US troops are intentionally targetting civilians, for no other reason than to kill them, then obviously, that should be dealt with swiftly and harshly. I propose the death penalty in those cases. But, that's not the case.

    "Winning hearts and minds", is crucial, but not at the cost of more American lives. It's not worth one single American soldier's life to insure that the locals don't hate us. If they're too stupid to realize who is really causing their misery, then tough **** for them.

    As far as the Afghans not having a choice, that's not true. They most certainly do have a choice. They can choose to work towards the annihilation of the Taliban. No more Taliban means no more US troops, which means that no more civilians get killed in fire missions. I think alotta folks are unable to see the big picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    ...."winning hearts and minds"...
    This concept has largely been proven to be nothing more than a myth for this region.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    This concept has largely been proven to be nothing more than a myth for this region.
    I agree, for the most part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I agree, for the most part.
    It greatly bothers me when people talk about "winning the hearts and minds" of this region or that no insurgency has ever been defeated. How can anybody feel comfortable with their opinions if they don't know this region or the issues at hand?

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    How can anybody feel comfortable with their opinions if they don't know this region or the issues at hand?

    I've often asked that question, but then remind myself that ignorance has no concience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    What most people don't understand is that the winning of hearts and minds in Iraq and Afghanistan mostly consists of being the biggest, baddest mother on the block; killing the enemy in every engagement; demonstrating our ability to close with and destroy anyone who opposes us. It's kind of hard to do this when you have little armchair generals telling us how to conduct tactical operations because of some imagined strategy.

    Collateral damage doesn’t do as much to undercut the “winning of hearts and minds” as most people would like to think; especially when the collateral damage is the result of a legitimate engagement. Iraq is a perfect example of this, as they (the Iraqis) have suffered innumerable casualties as the result of collateral damage, yet we were still able to win them over. Why is that? Because they are smart enough to realize two things:

    1. The Americans are bad mothers. We do not want to fight them.

    2. Most of the collateral damage was the result of legitimate engagements. If it’s anyone’s fault, it was the morons who chose to engage the Americans in close proximity to civilians.

    That's not to say we should try to MINIMIZE collateral damage, or make efforts to engage in humanitarian missions, but endangering our troops because some noob in America likes to think they know how to win counter-insurgency operations is positively criminal.

    If you've never served, just keep your tactical and strategic advice to yourself.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 09-16-09 at 02:45 PM.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    If you will take a moment you might realize that I was dressing the general issues raised not the specific incident.
    I apologize if I misunderstood. I thought you were addressing the OP. Can you clarify what you mean?

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