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Thread: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeVFF View Post
    Are you literally blind to truth?
    I did miss that line. You do appear to be correct. However, there does appear to be a solid reasoning behind such rules: Afghan civilian deaths decline under new U.S. tactics -- latimes.com

    The toll on civilians has angered Afghanistan's government and poisoned public opinion against the presence of American and allied troops
    With those two factors, limiting civilian casualties increases the likelihood of achieving a "win" in Afghanistan, and actually reduce the number of US casualties. The more likely that civilians actively help the Taliban, the more US deaths will occur.

    I do apologize for missing the line in your OP, it was my fault for trying to read to fast.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    God help us when an enemy nation decides to put together an army composed soley of women and children...
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Feel free to write to the military and tell them how to do their jobs.

    I am sure they will give your letter all due consideration.

    Iirc, the manual on counter insurgency operations is available online if you desire to understand more. Or if you merely want to talk about how you knw better than they do...
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    What's the truth? That if we accept high levels of collateral damage and kill a lot of innocent civilians, our troops will be safer?
    Nobody's "blind" to that fact. We know it's true.
    We just aren't going to do it anymore.
    The truth is, the welfare of our soldiers, specifically their lives and their morale take priority over any other variable on the battlefield.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The truth is, the welfare of our soldiers, specifically their lives and their morale take priority over any other variable on the battlefield.
    No. That's not true.
    If we're not there to protect innocents, then screw us.
    These are soldiers. They are not interested in collaterally killing a bunch of women, children, and old folks so that their jobs can be marginally more risk-free. They're brave; otherwise they wouldn't be soldiers.
    They're not there to tear up innocent civilians but to protect them, even if that means their jobs are sometimes riskier and tougher.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    God help us when an enemy nation decides to put together an army composed soley of women and children...
    Iran I think comes the closest during the Iraq-Iran war.
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    No. That's not true.
    If we're not there to protect innocents, then screw us.
    These are soldiers. They are not interested in collaterally killing a bunch of women, children, and old folks so that their jobs can be marginally more risk-free. They're brave; otherwise they wouldn't be soldiers.
    They're not there to tear up innocent civilians but to protect them, even if that means their jobs are sometimes riskier and tougher.
    You're right, they're not interested in accidentally killing non-combatants, however, they are interested in staying alive, themselves. Nothing will destroy morale quicker than when a leader proves to his men that their lives aren't his number one concern. When morale goes down the toilet, so does a unit's combat effectiveness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're right, they're not interested in accidentally killing non-combatants, however, they are interested in staying alive, themselves. Nothing will destroy morale quicker than when a leader proves to his men that their lives aren't his number one concern. When morale goes down the toilet, so does a unit's combat effectiveness.
    Look, my son will no doubt be there soon, and he's under no illusions that it will be "safe".
    He's not looking to make it "safer" for himself by killing civilians.
    That wouldn't make it safer anyway; every time we do that, the families of the dead manage to exact vengeance upon our troops.
    And frankly, I don't blame them. I'd do the same if I were them.
    If the populace isn't on our side, we won't win this war, and we'd better turn tail and run now, while at least some of our troops are still of sound mind and body.
    If we're planning to stay, there's no choice but to get the populace on our side... and that doesn't include strong, brave soldiers allowing innocent children to die in their stead, because they're Americans and their lives are therefore somehow worth more. Afghanis, not surprisingly, don't see it that way.
    The only way to get them on our side is to assure them that we don't see it that way either.
    Only with the people on our side, can we accomplish anything that resembles a "victory".

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    But innocent civilians, including children and the elderly, would've.
    And that's unacceptable.
    With a son who is about to stand on the safe end of the M16, you may want to learn a bit more about what is going on with your military. The problem is that non-military types continue to force their ideas of what war is upon those who actively engage in war.

    It is horribly laughable when people complain about how civilian deaths are unnaceptable as if the military should be doing something better than what they already do. Our government has spent billions perfecting precision guided missiles for the expressed goal of landing explosives with pin point accuracy upon our enemy while minimizing colllateral damage. We have placed our own troops in harms way to minimize collateral damage when we could simply pull back and bring in the steel rain effectively destroying everyone. But this isn't good enough for some.

    For some, the preach is more important than any civilian they pretend to care about. In the end, their whining and complaining only further endangers the civilians.....

    - It's these type people that the Bush administration was afraid of when it came to deciding on whether or not to impliment martial law after our military reached Baghdad in 2003. "Such a thing is inhumane." "Who are we to force a certian behavior upon people even on temporary terms?" But what would have been more humane in the end? In the mean time, these false humanitarians would have simply rejoiced in their "moral" victory no matter that it set the stage for whole sale slaughter later.

    - Some aren't satisfied with their military on the verge of victory in a battle like Fallujah so they rally behind the media and shed crocodile tears for any civilians caught in the way. And while they are celebrating their "moral" victory because the military pulls out, they remain too stupid to realize that all they did was create a more intense situation and set the stage for more civilian deaths when it is time for Fallujah II.

    These are merely two examples on how our civilians set stages for more difficult missions, worse environments, and place out troops in harms way. The media's mission to bring drama to the lives of mundane civilians who can't fathom what war is merely ensures that our struggles will be far more deadlier than they have to be. As a civilization, we have forgotten what it takes to win wars. I have mentioned this before. Since World War II, we have not had a single end game unconditional victory. We have divided nations in half, abandoned people to slaughter, allowed dictators to live, and made the amature's mistake of trying to win wars on the cheap. Some of this is because non-military types believe they can define what victory is. Worse still are the non-military types who have never served, but find themselves dictating the conduct of seasoned veterans who have spent their lives studying war.

    Our military knows how to fight and how to fight well. It can deliver a victory in just about any venture just as long our definitions of "victory" remain practical in today's world. And it can do so by limiting the amount of collateral damage while understanding that the idea of "winning hearts and minds" only goes so far because some hearts and minds are simply not winnable. But what it can't do is compete with the media and the couch commandos who haven't the ability to determine when their perfect idea on how to wage war meets the practical reality of how to win wars.
    Last edited by MSgt; 09-13-09 at 09:36 PM.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Look, my son will no doubt be there soon, and he's under no illusions that it will be "safe".
    You don't know that. Not to mention, if he deploys, I'm sure he'll come back home and disagree with you on that point.

    He's not looking to make it "safer" for himself by killing civilians.
    There's a large difference between collateral damage and actually targetting civilians.
    That wouldn't make it safer anyway; every time we do that, the families of the dead manage to exact vengeance upon our troops.
    When you refuse a unit supporting fires, while they're in a firefight, then yes, it does make the battlefield more dangerous.

    And frankly, I don't blame them. I'd do the same if I were them.
    But, you're not. Are you? It's easy to say that when it's not you doing the dieing.

    If the populace isn't on our side, we won't win this war, and we'd better turn tail and run now, while at least some of our troops are still of sound mind and body.
    If your soldiers aren't on yur side, then you'll lose the war even quicker.


    If we're planning to stay, there's no choice but to get the populace on our side... and that doesn't include strong, brave soldiers allowing innocent children to die in their stead, because they're Americans and their lives are therefore somehow worth more. Afghanis, not surprisingly, don't see it that way.
    If we're planning to stay, we need to descend upon the enemy with the maximum amount of violence. If a few civilians get wasted, then that's just the nature of warfare.

    This whole mentality plays right into the enemy's hands. So much, that he will never start a firefight in a place where there aren't civilians to be killed. Ultimately, this strategy will result in more civilian and American military casualties, not to mention the damage it will do to the morale of American soldiers. It's trully scary to think that there are people in our government that think this a good idea. Too bad we're going to have to wait for history to prove them terribly wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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