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Thread: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

  1. #141
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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    In Right Wing Bizzarro World the more patriotic you are the more you are willing to excuse civilian casualties.

    One poster said he was fine with a 10:1 ratio civilian deaths to save one US soldier!

    That's pretty damn patriotic if you ask me!...............Shows how brave they are too!

    Over in Israel they killed 500 Palestinian kids alone in a 1 Month time span in response to rocket attacks that killed 8 Israelies over a two year period.

    Damn, the Israelies must really love their country to do that!
    Last edited by dragondad; 09-20-09 at 05:06 PM.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Why? What do you think we'd do about it?
    Women here are born the same as women there.
    People will accept what they're raised with, especially when they aren't educated and know nothing else, and are largely taken up with such daily concerns as survival and keeping their children alive.
    I guess I was under the mistaken impression that USA women had some moxie. It is sad that they have such a low opinion of their own worth.

    .

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    I guess I was under the mistaken impression that USA women had some moxie. It is sad that they have such a low opinion of their own worth.

    .
    Nothing really matters to women but that their children survive.
    Only in societies where there is no credible threat to their children for an extended period of time do women concern themselves with anything else.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    What? But I thought they were "innocent".
    Get your story straight, y'all.
    They are innocent. The average American soldier hasn't committed any crimes.

    They're just guys doing a job. Their job involves killing some dangerous people.
    They can minimize civilian casualties as much as humanly possible while doing that job, and that's what I and all other reasonable Americans expect them to do.
    All the tough talk in the world doesn't change it.
    Dieing, because they could get a fire mission, because of a fear of collateral damage, isn't a part of their job description.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Nothing really matters to women but that their children survive.
    Only in societies where there is no credible threat to their children for an extended period of time do women concern themselves with anything else.
    Maybe women that do not stand up for themselves and their daughters do not deserve to have children that survive.

    .

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    In Right Wing Bizzarro World the more patriotic you are the more you are willing to excuse civilian casualties.

    One poster said he was fine with a 10:1 ratio civilian deaths to save one US soldier!

    That's pretty damn patriotic if you ask me!...............Shows how brave they are too!

    Over in Israel they killed 500 Palestinian kids alone in a 1 Month time span in response to rocket attacks that killed 8 Israelies over a two year period.

    Damn, the Israelies must really love their country to do that!
    Maybe the Pals should stop shooting off rockets into Israel? I got an even better idea, the Pals should stop positioning those rockets in civilian neighborhoods and creating all those civilian casualties. I'm sure that logic is above the heads of most Libbos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Maybe women that do not stand up for themselves and their daughters do not deserve to have children that survive.

    .
    Whether they deserve children or even want them, they do not have a choice in a developing nation.
    And biology doesn't permit them any choice but to love them more than life, once they're here.

    It's the human condition.
    Because industrialized civilizations have risen above it doesn't mean it's not still there, or that it wouldn't reassert itself immediately in the absence of the technology with which we hold it at bay and deny its existence.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Their army is not composed solely of women and children.
    Thank you for taking my hypothetical "what if" statement completely out of context...
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    I hope that isn't the case, but I trust your experience.
    I keep offering you this because I know you have concern for your son.

    It is very much the case. When our KIA and WIA numbers raise in any war it is usually due to an increase of operations. And in today's wars, this is the case because the military is routinely hand cuffed by politicians until the situation demands more blood than it should have. I can offer you example after example on how the proper conduct of war is far safer upon the military man and the local civilain than the politicians improper handling of our militay affairs.

    Our military can defeat virtually anything in its path while maintaining a measure of respect toward civilian life and structure. Even our diplomats would have trouble preventing an American victory. It is always the politicians (as far from the fight as possible) that cause more blood than needed and places civilians in longer lasting dangers.

    It is not humane to spare fanatical murderers. It is not humane to play into the our enemy's hands. And it is not humane to endanger our troops out of political correctness. In Iraq, the rediculous notion of being humane spared Al-Sadr and some Mosques. The result was the strengthening of Sadr's militias and use of Mosques as HQs and cache storage, which further endangerd civilians and the lives of our troops for years. Our allegiance to exaggerated media clips over Fallujah merely paved the way for Fallujah II (the terroriost capital of the world by that time) where this time our enemy dug in and used hospitals (of which we had to ram through) further wrecking structure and lives.

    Now we are starting to see our politicians do it in Afghanistan. With this as an exmaple on how to survive the American military, how many more local civilians and American troops are going to be placed in harms way? How many more stories will read now about American Marines dying because the Tali-Ban positioned themselves behind civilians? They may as well strap civilians to the front of airplanes for their next strike on our soil. Our enemies have consistently learned to play our "morality" against us and we continue to play into their hands all for the temporary and senseless idea that "we" kill with greater morality.

    We must learn to live with higher levels of foriegn instability and not seek the false peace of the secret policeman or dictator if we are ever to see an end to the tumult by which we find ourselves troubled today. We also need to grasp the basic truth that the path to winning the hearts and minds of the masses leads over the corpses of the violent minority.

    As long as our ROEs are tailored to suit the media and not military necessity, we will continue to place civilains lives in danger and the lives of our troops. Ultimately we only protect our enemies lives.
    Last edited by MSgt; 09-20-09 at 05:28 PM.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're reading comments that haven't been made. No one has said anything about ignoring the needs of the indigenous personel of Afghanistan. This whole thread has nothing to do with targetting, or otherwise intentionall endangering civilians. The only point that anyone on my side of the debate has suggested, is that we can't place civilians lives ahead of American soldiers's lives. If an American unit is taking fire from a village, then we need to return fire, period. If a few civilians get wasted in the process, well then that's just the nature of war. If the civilians aren't smart enough to see that they wouldn't dieing if the enemy wasn't using them for cover, then there's not much we're going to do to help them.
    Lt. colonel David Galula was born in Tunisia, raised in Morocco, and entered the French Army in 1938. He wrote Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice, one of the most influential and essential books on Counterinsurgency. His ideas about Counterinsurgency were learned in Algeria, where the French fought a war against an nationalist Algerian uprising. In his book, he explains the difference between firepower in conventional warfare and in Counterinsurgency:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Galula
    A soldier fired upon in conventional war who does not fire back with every available weapon would be guilty of a dereliction of his duty; the reverse would be the case in counterinsurgency warfare, where the rule is to apply the minimum amount of firepower.
    The Army has failed to follow this before; most notably when the 82nd Airborne followed a system of tracking wherever an incoming mortar round had come from and responding to it with a volley of artillery fire. The response to this system from the insurgents was to setup in a random persons' home and then leave after firing a few shots, causing the 82nd to decimate that innocent persons' home and achieving nothing but an angry Iraqi family.

    Lt. Colonel John Nagl's account of how the Army approached Vietnam which later was echoed in Iraq:
    The American Army's involvement in the Second Indochina War from 1950 to 1972 demonstrates the triumph of the institutional culture of an organization over attempts at doctrinal innovation and the diminution of the effectiveness of the organization at accomplishing national objectives. The United States Army had become reliant on firepower and technological superiority in its history of annilihating enemy forces... The concept that success in counterinsurgency consisted of seperating the insurgents from popular support never took hold. The U.S. Army proceeded with its historical role of destroying the enemy army--even if it had a hard time finding it. The United States Army entered the Vietnam War with a doctrine well suited to fighting conventional war in Europe, but worse than useless for the counterinsurgency it was about to combat
    You are falling back to old and failed ideas on how to combat an insurgency. The Army Manual on Counterinsurgency was written by General Petraus, who changed the direction in Iraq by following these fundamental principles.

    T.E. Lawrence, the British adviser to Arab guerillas during World War 1, defined tactics as:
    the means toward the strategic goal, the steps of its staircase
    Utilizing tactics that go against the strategic goal harm the mission... By using firepower on civilians you will prolong the war, ensuring more men will die, or even worse, you may create the conditions for failure.

    I know exactly what you are saying. The question is whether you know what I am saying, or, more pressing, whether you are willing to listen.
    Last edited by Tubub; 09-20-09 at 05:30 PM.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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