Page 14 of 16 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 156

Thread: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

  1. #131
    Guru

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:03 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,469

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Well, maybe we should just leave.

    I can't help turning it around and thinking, what if there were some American bad guys hiding here in America?
    What if these bad guys had gone and committed some offense against Afghanistan: blown up a government building over there eight years ago, and now they're hiding out somewhere in the Rocky Mountains or something.

    Would it really be okay with us if a huge army of Afghanis (for the sake of this analogy, just pretend they have a huge, powerful army) occupied our country for eight years in an attempt to root these bad Americans out and kill them?
    And, assuming for the sake of argument that it was okay with us and that we in fact supported their efforts, would it be okay if they sometimes blew up bingo halls full of old ladies or mowed down groups of schoolchildren in school crosswalks, in their effort to get these bad guys?

    They're people; we're people.
    Our cultures are different, but I don't believe- at the bottom of it all- that anybody's that different from anybody else.
    I wonder what the women of the USA would think if they were being treated like the Afgan women were treated by the Taliban. They might welcome some outside force.

    .
    Last edited by TOJ; 09-20-09 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #132
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,022

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Well, maybe we should just leave.
    Now you have a point. But you are expressing it over impractical reasons.

    Afghanistan is not Iraq. Iraq was always going to result in what we see today. If the Rumsfeld coven had listened to the military experience screaming in their ears, today's Iraq would have come in 2005 with far less internal slaughter. And despite the impratical conditions and demands for how "victory" was to be defined from the media and the stupid Democrats, Iraq was never going to be Vermont. But the relative success we see in Iraq, despite the medias cheer for ultimate failure, marks our efforts complete.

    Afghanistan is not set up civlizationaly for anything remotely like what we see in Iraq. Instead of dealing with two distinct major tribes like we were in Iraq, we are dealing with literally hundreds of clans that are as corrupt towards each other as their government is to all of them. "Nation Building" is not practical. "Winning the hearts and minds" from people who were bred to hate you and hold everything you do in contempt is also impossible.

    It's time to bring an old tool, which served great nations rather well in the past, forward. The "Punitive Strike" is perfectly suited for this region. If they cannot lift themselves out of their self designed opppresion and failure and they cannot allow outsiders to give them a leg up, then they are hopeless. Punishing our enemy in this region from afar is what they leave us with in terms of protecting ourselves from their human waste.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Would it really be okay with us if a huge army of Afghanis (for the sake of this analogy, just pretend they have a huge, powerful army) occupied our country for eight years in an attempt to root these bad Americans out and kill them?
    Well, practicality & rationality trumps hypothetical scenarios.

    An enemy in our midst would be hunted down and punished by our own people. Our civilization will not abide religious tyrants, serial killers, militant militias, and cults even as our media looks to brand our government and civil protectors as the enemy. This is not the case for others who allow their rabble to exist, organize, and exercise their terror locally and internationally. If the Middle Eastern Arab governments condemn Islamic terrorist attacks and we are to believe that their people do the same, then where are the great Arab armies fighting along side us to rid their civilizations of their own creations? Where is the Arab media really condemning the Arab orchestrated slaughter in Sudan? Or the condemnation of Arab instigated violence in Iraq instead of blaming their blood thirsty culture on the American powers that freed them from the dictator? Do even Muslims believe that they deserve nothing more than brutality and oppression to behave?

    The lesson here that we should all learn is that at the heart of matters people are not the same all over as you suggest. For all our errors, we did give Iraqis a unique chance to build a rule-of-law democracy. But they preferred for years to indulge in old hatreds, confessional violence, ethnic bigotry, and a culture of corruption (Perhaps they are merely on break right now). According to the behaviors of Muslims themselves, they need a good old fashioned dictator to keep them in check. They need a foriegn devil to blame for everything in order to ignore the Bashirs, Husseins, Ahmenadejads. They need an American military to hate and criticize in order to ignore the Al-Quedas, Tali-Bans, Hezbollahs, etc. In the end, people get the governments they deserve.

    Using hypothetics to rationalize a place where we can all hug each other and get along serves nobody any justice.
    Last edited by MSgt; 09-20-09 at 04:30 PM.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  3. #133
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    10-26-10 @ 06:34 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,978

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    I wonder what the women of the USA would think if they were being treated like the Afgan women were treated by the Taliban. They might have welcomed some outside force.

    .


    I imagine most American women would probably accept such treatment, even defend it with their very lives against foreign invaders wishing to change it, if it were the status quo and if it were all anyone had ever known.
    There might be a few who didn't like it; those few would either find a way to escape the culture in which it was the norm, or they'd be subjugated eventually.
    Not until there is an overwhelming majority of them wanting it to change, will it change.
    Outside "forces" will not be able to force lasting change on those who do not want it or are not ready for it.
    Women are still oppressed even here in the US. But we love our daddies and husbands, brothers and sons.
    Imagine how ferociously we'd fight for the status quo- even though it renders us inferior to men- if martians suddenly landed and began trying to force change upon us.

    In Afghanistan, we are talking about a population which is largely very poor and uneducated; both the men and the women. Tradition is what they have.
    Last edited by 1069; 09-20-09 at 04:34 PM.

  4. #134
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Dallas-Ft.Worth
    Last Seen
    11-28-09 @ 02:50 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    541

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeVFF View Post
    Please read the article fully, this has been a pattern on the Afghan front.

    Under command of the new administration, the US military's hands are tied. The new appointed Military leaders have protocol that, bluntly, chooses foreign civilians lives over those of our own troops.

    If any of you don't think Obama's administration is to blame for the recent death toll in Afghanistan, think again.
    Boo hoo!....We can't bomb civilians anymore to get at the "terrorists".

    We actually have to send our troops in to fight! Oh my!

    I'm sure this Muslim' kids Father will understand your argument that bombing civilians to get at "terrorists" is ethical and moral.

    http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&_/images...tated_arms.jpe

    Semper Fi!
    Last edited by dragondad; 09-20-09 at 04:46 PM.

  5. #135
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    10-26-10 @ 06:34 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,978

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    Boo hoo!....We can't bomb civilians anymore to get at the "terrorists".

    We actually have to send our troops in to fight! Oh my!
    As tempting as it may be- especially when none of your loved ones are over there fighting or are likely to be, in the immediate future- I don't want to be cavalier about danger to our troops, either.

    There can be no denying that the American casualty rate in Afghanistan has seen a steep increase lately, and may increase even more.
    That's no laughing matter.

    But the soldiers who do come home may come home without the blood of innocents on their hands, and that's nothing to take lightly. That's a gift, bought at the expense of their own safety.
    And it's what I wish for all of them, including my son.

  6. #136
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Dallas-Ft.Worth
    Last Seen
    11-28-09 @ 02:50 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    541

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Before we jump to too many conclusions, there are some things to note.



    This is the key section of the report. If the enemy knows what you are going to do, you are screwed.

    Secondly, there is no evidence that the commanders chose civilian lives over the lives of troops. All we are told in the article is that helicopters and HE and smoke artillery where unavailable, but that WP was available, and used. We do not know why and there are a number of reasons possible, with logistic troubles probably topping the list.

    This is a tragic story, and to twist it to serve a political purpose is vile.

    Also, please read the BN news rules, your thread title is supposed to match the article headline.
    Boy you sure know how to rain on a right winger's parade, injecting reason into his "blame Obama" storyline.

  7. #137
    Guru

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:03 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,469

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    I imagine most American women would probably accept such treatment, even defend it with their very lives against foreign invaders wishing to change it, if it were the status quo and if it were all anyone had ever known.

    There might be a few who didn't like it; those few would either find a way to escape the culture in which it was the norm, or they'd be subjugated eventually.
    Not until there is an overwhelming majority of them wanting it to change, will it change.
    Outside "forces" will not be able to force lasting change on those who do not want it or are not ready for it.
    Women are still oppressed even here in the US. But we love our daddies and husbands, brothers and sons.
    Imagine how ferociously we'd fight for the status quo- even though it renders us inferior to men- if martians suddenly landed and began trying to force change upon us.
    I find it hard to believe USA woman would accept most of the following (list from Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan ):

    ************************************************** ****
    1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

    2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

    3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

    4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

    5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

    6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

    7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

    8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

    9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

    10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

    11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

    12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

    13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

    14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

    15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

    16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

    17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

    18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

    19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

    20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

    21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

    22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

    23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

    24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

    25- Ban on female public baths.

    26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

    27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

    28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

    29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.
    ************************************************** ******



    I guess you would know more about this than I as you (at least I think) are a USA woman, although it cerainly is sad.

    .

  8. #138
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    10-26-10 @ 06:34 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,978

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    I find it hard to believe USA woman would accept most of the following...
    Why? What do you think we'd do about it?
    Women here are born the same as women there.
    People will accept what they're raised with, especially when they aren't educated and know nothing else, and are largely taken up with such daily concerns as survival and keeping their children alive.

    Women who have no control over whether or when to have children or how many to have care little about other personal freedoms.
    This is seen in developing nations all over the planet.
    "Equality" would be a farce under such circumstances; they are not equal.
    They will always be the slaves of men, and their shackles will be their children.
    Last edited by 1069; 09-20-09 at 05:01 PM.

  9. #139
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,022

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    There can be no denying that the American casualty rate in Afghanistan has seen a steep increase lately, and may increase even more.
    That's no laughing matter.
    This is because the Marine Corps is shifting from Iraq deployments to Afghanistan. In prior years, our numbers were just over 11,000 and even a great number of this was from routine sea bases to offer temporary relief towards U.S Army and NATO units. This number has been increasing by the thousands all year. The rise in American deaths is due to finally taking the fight to our enemies rather than hanging out and hitting them when they appear. It's not because Obama. It's not because the Tali-Ban found some second wind. It is because this war is coming to a head and it is time to saturate the desert with blood.

    This means civilians will be caught in the fray.
    Last edited by MSgt; 09-20-09 at 05:02 PM.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  10. #140
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    10-26-10 @ 06:34 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,978

    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    This is because the Marine Corps is shifting from Iraq deployments to Afghanistan. In prior years, our numbers were just over 11,000. This number has been increasing by the thousands all year. The rise in American deaths is due to finally taking the fight to our enemies rather than hanging out and hitting them when they appear. It's not because Obama. It's not because the Tali-Ban found some second wind. It is because this war is coming to a head and it is time to saturate the desert with blood.

    This means civilians will be caught in the fray.
    I hope that isn't the case, but I trust your experience.

Page 14 of 16 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •