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Thread: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

  1. #101
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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Essentially, the insurgents would rather get paid than be killed. Such an incentive would not exist in the absence of our aptly demonstrated military superiority. The insurgents capitulated because they were smart enough to realize that money is better than bullets.
    But the British were superior to the Afghans when they ruled Afghanistan. Why didn't it work then? If the French really wanted to, they could have brought in sufficent troops and equipment to aptly demonstrate military superiority.

    Moreover, this misses another point I was trying to make e.g., collateral damage is not as detrimental to our strategic objectives as everyone would like to think.
    Okay, so what level of detriment do you think that collateral damage has?

    And since we know collateral damage does not preclude the completion of strategic objectives, considerations of such should not jeopardize the safety of our troops.
    Strategic? Or do you mean tactical? I'd agree on tactical, but not on strategic. Especially if you are considering COIN in terms of economic development. Killing lots of civilians to the point where they will not work with Americans in economic development does not achieve strategic goals.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Interesting you think that after I explicitly stated the problem of water and fish to apsdt. I take it you did not understand the analogy?
    Your analogy is flawed. You took different wars, involving different armies, during different time periods. The British didn't lose in Afghanistan because they didn't, "win the hearts and minds", of the Afghans. They lost, because their Napoleonic tactics and command structure didn't allow them the flexibility to conform to an assymetrical war. The same thing is purdy much true for the French, except the the French have lost every war they're ever been in, so that one's up in the air.

    The whole, "hearts and minds", idea has really, really been beaten to death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Your analogy is flawed.
    You think so because you don't understand it.

    Do you realize that that fish water concept was used by General P's think tank?

    Do you even know what the fish and what the water represent?

    The whole, "hearts and minds", idea has really, really been beaten to death.
    it's not actually about hearts and minds. It's about mere tolerance. Do we give a **** if they like us? No. We give a **** about their tolerance. We don't care if you like us or not, only if you are willing to work with us.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    You think so because you don't understand it.

    Do you realize that that fish water concept was used by General P's think tank?

    Do you even know what the fish and what the water represent?
    Well, by all means, explain it to me and please, use historical examples to support your point.



    it's not actually about hearts and minds. It's about mere tolerance. Do we give a **** if they like us? No. We give a **** about their tolerance. We don't care if you like us or not, only if you are willing to work with us.
    Well, if they're less tolerant of use than they are the Talliban, then there's something seriously wong with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But the British were superior to the Afghans when they ruled Afghanistan. Why didn't it work then? If the French really wanted to, they could have brought in sufficent troops and equipment to aptly demonstrate military superiority.
    Sound CI tactics are inherent to military superiority; the British and French obviously lacked them; not to mention the technological disparity.

    Okay, so what level of detriment do you think that collateral damage has?
    I couldn't say for sure, but a policy of minimized collateral damage is always best.

    Strategic? Or do you mean tactical? I'd agree on tactical, but not on strategic. Especially if you are considering COIN in terms of economic development. Killing lots of civilians to the point where they will not work with Americans in economic development does not achieve strategic goals.
    No, I meant strategic. How many civilians would have to die before the Iraqis would refuse to negotiate? Apparently, it's more than 100,000 [1].

    Now, I'm not saying collateral damage shouldn't be avoided whenever possible. It obviously has a detrimental effect on strategic objectives, but I don't think it's so detrimental that our troops must be further endangered because of it.

    [1] - Iraq Body Count

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Sound CI tactics are inherent to military superiority; the British and French obviously lacked them; not to mention the technological disparity.
    That's exactly right. The British and French armies, in those time periods, weren't fluid enough to adapt to a new battlefield. It's the same reason that the militarily superior British Army lost the Revolutionary War: they failed to adapt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #107
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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    If you've never served, just keep your tactical and strategic advice to yourself.
    Somewhere in a dark room with his eyes closed and his hands over his ears is Rumsfeld.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    What most people don't understand is that the winning of hearts and minds in Iraq and Afghanistan mostly consists of being the biggest, baddest mother on the block; killing the enemy in every engagement; demonstrating our ability to close with and destroy anyone who opposes us. It's kind of hard to do this when you have little armchair generals telling us how to conduct tactical operations because of some imagined strategy.

    Collateral damage doesn’t do as much to undercut the “winning of hearts and minds” as most people would like to think; especially when the collateral damage is the result of a legitimate engagement. Iraq is a perfect example of this, as they (the Iraqis) have suffered innumerable casualties as the result of collateral damage, yet we were still able to win them over. Why is that? Because they are smart enough to realize two things:

    1. The Americans are bad mothers. We do not want to fight them.
    My question would be, how does one go about intimidating people whose lives are so bereft of security and comfort that they are generally willing to sacrifice their lives- in a very literal way- by blowing themselves up on a routine basis in order to take some of their adversaries with them?
    These people- the tribal people of Afghanistan- are some of the poorest people in the world, with the lowest quality of life. I don't have to be there and meet them first hand to know this; I'm well-read, and it's common knowledge. I've heard it from a number of reputable sources and organizations, such as WHO.
    It's true, their culture and their religion have a lot to do with it.
    But do you really think a culture and religion like that would continue to thrive among a people who had any personal stake in living this life?
    These people don't have enough food or potable water. When they get sick, there isn't any medical care; they either die or just stay sick. They can't reasonably expect any of their children to survive to adulthood; if one does, it's an unexpected blessing. There is nothing of beauty or comfort in their lives. There is nothing to make them think they might be worthwhile- as individuals- to anyone. Their lives have meaning only when they are a cog in a machine; the only opportunity they have to give any meaning to the fact that they lived, were here for awhile, and died is to be part of this struggle against foreign invaders making their bleak lives even worse than they were previously, if that's even possible.

    I'm not trying to get on a soapbox and make everyone feel sorry for these people, but seriously: how are you going to scare or intimidate, with military might or through "being a badass", people who have no real reason to live and who aren't attached in any meaningful way to this life?

    I mean, I suppose you could threaten to torture their loved ones to death; but even that doesn't really seem to faze them. Remember the story someone posted awhile back about the Iraqi police officer whose small son was kidnapped by insurgents and allegedly tortured for years.
    "Better my son be a martyr," the policeman was quoted by the article as saying, "than that we give in to their demands."

    Really. These people have lived all their lives- all their history- in a way that's inconceivable to us as Westerners.
    It's foolhardy to believe we can scare them.
    It's pretty hard to scare people who don't eat enough, and haven't gotten enough to eat for their entire lives. Their emotions and senses are kind of dulled; they view everything through a sort of numb haze. They can't be expected to respond as healthy, alert people would; I'm sure this fact is taken as further evidence by some that they aren't really human and don't need to be treated as such.

  9. #109
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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    I'm sure this fact is taken as further evidence by some that they aren't really human and don't need to be treated as such.
    Thety should by all means be treated as humanely. However, American lives should never be made the price of that humane treatment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Thety should by all means be treated as humanely. However, American lives should never be made the price of that humane treatment.
    Well, if Americans aren't willing to risk their lives, we can always leave.
    I'd be totally down with that. Then the risk would be reduced to nil.
    As long as we're in their country, though, it is incumbent upon us to treat them humanely, regardless of the risk.

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