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Thread: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

  1. #91
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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    What's the truth? That if we accept high levels of collateral damage and kill a lot of innocent civilians, our troops will be safer?
    Nobody's "blind" to that fact. We know it's true.
    We just aren't going to do it anymore.
    Welcome to Viet Nam, 2009.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    What most people don't understand is that the winning of hearts and minds in Iraq and Afghanistan mostly consists of being the biggest, baddest mother on the block; killing the enemy in every engagement; demonstrating our ability to close with and destroy anyone who opposes us. It's kind of hard to do this when you have little armchair generals telling us how to conduct tactical operations because of some imagined strategy.
    Except that isn't what happened in Iraq. Furthermore, if that was actually good, effective COIN, then the French would still be in control of Indochina and the British would have never lost Afghanistan.

    Your two statements are highly questionable.

    Many of the awakening councils came to believe that the terrorists were worse then the US, not that the US was unable to be beaten. And second, that agreeing to be part of the government would be good for their wallets and their status. Remember that the US promised jobs and pay checks to awakening council members. It's primarily a reason they are pissed off at us we (or the Iraqi government more accurately) hasn't entirely come through.

    If you've never served, just keep your tactical and strategic advice to yourself.
    Never mind when what you state is what actually occurred....
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    It's not. It's the same year in and year out. But our military has to be able to wage war the way it knows how to do. When our military excursions become politicized, the result is always far more death than need be. We have a history of this. Fallujah II was a result of the media's exaggerations over Fallujah I. To place perspective on this....

    - Vietnam saw the media dictate the outcome of a war.

    - Iraq saw the media dictate the outcome of a battle (Fallujah I).

    Today the media's dictating military decisions and encouraging restrictions to our politicians more than ever. This trend is a guarantee to our military that failure is the only product.
    I can think of another... it's called the draft. That's when the stupid rules guarantee that the smart people won't volunteer anymore, and the stupid people that made the rules have to force people to join the service.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Because, the media has learned that it can only get away with so much defeatism. The days of the loser piece-a-crap Walter Cronkite saying, "the war can't be won", are over.
    No, the mantel has been passed the the Democrats.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Apsdt doesn't seem to think so.



    This depends. For instance, if we always choose to go how you want, but result in killing civilians, doesn't that prolong the war which exposes even more soldiers to risk of death? So all we really end up doing is trading the lives of soldiers in the future for the lives of soldiers now. How does one measure this? In lives?
    What you don't seem to understand is that if you allow the enemy to hide behind civilians while they shoot at our troops, they will continue to hide behind civilians while they shoot at our troops...

    Is that beyond your understanding?

    Now, if you go ahead and kill them while they are hiding behind civilians, not only will they move for better cover, but the civilians will quit letting them hide behind them.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Um...no this is not true at all. We have a very long history of insurgencies being defeated and broken throughout the world. The Romans have a history. The Japanese have a history. The British have a history. The Americans have a history - Morro...Boxer Rebellion...Cuba... Hell, all the European colonial powers had success against local insurgencies. There are entire books written on this topic.

    The only difference now is that every time a media camera captures imperfection or when a soldier dies the masses paint it with "failure." And they do so because they don't know any better and simply form opinions that are based off of some idiot commentator who also doesn't understand what he looking at.
    Hey... knock it off... my thanks button is getting worn out.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Except that isn't what happened in Iraq. Furthermore, if that was actually good, effective COIN, then the French would still be in control of Indochina and the British would have never lost Afghanistan.

    Your two statements are highly questionable.

    Many of the awakening councils came to believe that the terrorists were worse then the US, not that the US was unable to be beaten. And second, that agreeing to be part of the government would be good for their wallets and their status. Remember that the US promised jobs and pay checks to awakening council members. It's primarily a reason they are pissed off at us we (or the Iraqi government more accurately) hasn't entirely come through.
    I know all this. I was there when all this was happening.

    Essentially, the insurgents would rather get paid than be killed. Such an incentive would not exist in the absence of our aptly demonstrated military superiority. The insurgents capitulated because they were smart enough to realize that money is better than bullets.

    Moreover, this misses another point I was trying to make e.g., collateral damage is not as detrimental to our strategic objectives as everyone would like to think. If it was those insurgents wouldn't have bargained with us, period.

    And since we know collateral damage does not preclude the completion of strategic objectives, considerations of such should not jeopardize the safety of our troops.

    Never mind when what you state is what actually occurred....
    Yea, what would I know about it…

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Except that isn't what happened in Iraq. Furthermore, if that was actually good, effective COIN, then the French would still be in control of Indochina and the British would have never lost Afghanistan.
    The French and British armies in Asia can't be equally compared to the American military in a modern day war. Too many dynamics versus then and now. Besides that, losing wars is a centuries old tradition for the French.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    I can think of another... it's called the draft. That's when the stupid rules guarantee that the smart people won't volunteer anymore, and the stupid people that made the rules have to force people to join the service.
    I disagree that a draft would dumb down our military. Not only will the smart people keep volunteering--3 in 5 Vietnam vets volunteered to serve. Plus, Americans are superior to any other nationality in both aggressiveness and intelligence, so you're average draftee will be smarter than our enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Marine and Afghan forces lose many due to lack of support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    What you don't seem to understand is that if you allow the enemy to hide behind civilians while they shoot at our troops, they will continue to hide behind civilians while they shoot at our troops.

    Is that beyond your understanding?
    Interesting you think that after I explicitly stated the problem of water and fish to apsdt. I take it you did not understand the analogy?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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