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Thread: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

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    Re: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    So we should let Health Care costs continue to rise unchecked? That is certainly fiscally responsible?

    I believe you actually have to have a plan to reduce the deficit, which we are all worried about, and avoiding the major drivers of the deficit is no way to 'tackle' the problem.

    We call this smoke and mirrors.
    You are assuming that I don't want anything done about health care. Of course I do. I want more options as a consumer. I want to have my health care tax deductible if I buy it myself, like those who buy it through work. I don't want Medicare touched (these guys have more right to health care than most, paying into it all their lives). I want TORT reform, and incentives for students to go into medicine. Universal health care wouldn't have such high projected costs here in the US if it didn't include an enormous rise in demand (30 million new patients) without at least an equal rise in the supply of doctors.

    I agree that health care is important. I disagree that it is important enough to compare with past callings of joint sessions in congress (eg. 9/11).

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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I don't see any real difference between calling someone a liar and booing. And what's even more troubling is that you people are trying to make this about Wilson when it should be about Obama stating a bold faced and egregious lie to the American people on national t.v..




    Insuring illegal aliens when we're 11.5 TRILLION dollars in debt should be bloody criminal.



    He stated a bold faced lie on national t.v. and was rightly called a liar.
    Well, one is a sound, sounds like 'boooooo' and generally conveys disareement. Calling someone a liar in public generally means that you not only disagree, but that you are specifically charging the person with a deliberate attempt to mislead.

    The later generally requires something called proof.

    So, as COngrees currently mandates that those entering an ER be treated regardless of status, illegal immigrants are CURRENTLY being treated. I have seen nothing that would seek to change this by extending insurance coverage to illegal aliens.

    I will also remind you that the vast majority if the extended debt was incurred through wreckless tax cuts in conjunction with increased expenditures. The current wars are the first time in our nations history that we have not only gone to war without increasing taxes, but by cutting them.

    I will also point out that the current, and largely successful fiscal stimulus package was actually initiated under Bush (a Republican) with strong dissention from Congressional Republicans.

    Now that it appears to be successful, as Kensian Economics suggeted it would be, I wonder why Republicans are want it be failing when in essence they created it? So, the fact that they strongly disavowed their own creation allowing Obama to be both responsible for the decision and the response is bad for Republicans?

    I suppose it is, but none of that make Mr. Wilson's comment either appropriate or accurate.

    Mr. Wilson can try to repeal the ER requirements from national law, but he would also be denying Americas unisured ermerget care as well. Let's hope his ego is less important to him than human lives.

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    Re: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by pro-bipartisan View Post
    So are you saying Healthcare isn't important?
    You originally made your question to me.

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    Re: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightarrow View Post
    You are assuming that I don't want anything done about health care. Of course I do. I want more options as a consumer. I want to have my health care tax deductible if I buy it myself, like those who buy it through work. I don't want Medicare touched (these guys have more right to health care than most, paying into it all their lives). I want TORT reform, and incentives for students to go into medicine. Universal health care wouldn't have such high projected costs here in the US if it didn't include an enormous rise in demand (30 million new patients) without at least an equal rise in the supply of doctors.

    I agree that health care is important. I disagree that it is important enough to compare with past callings of joint sessions in congress (eg. 9/11).
    And yet Congress doesn't respond to the President's whim. There appears to be broad concensus between the two branches of government to create this forum.

    Ironically, most of what you are concerend about is exacty what Obama talked about. You are in essence getting most of what you want, but are peeved because Congress and the President sat down and talked jointly with the American public? Seriously?

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    Re: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightarrow View Post
    You originally made your question to me.
    Sorry then.

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    Re: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    And yet Congress doesn't respond to the President's whim. There appears to be broad concensus between the two branches of government to create this forum.

    Ironically, most of what you are concerend about is exacty what Obama talked about. You are in essence getting most of what you want, but are peeved because Congress and the President sat down and talked jointly with the American public? Seriously?
    Mmmm.... not exactly. The President is proposing making cuts to Medicare, none of the bills talk about freeing up the market of insurance by allowing purchases across state lines, and if the President succeeds in going against the biggest interest group of the democrats (trial lawyers) and cuts down on wasteful spending due to defensive medicine and costly lawsuits, I promise here and now I will be a strong supporter to Obama and vote for him in 2012.

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    Re: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    ...but none of that make Mr. Wilson's comment either appropriate or accurate.
    Though I definitely agree with you that Rep. Wilson's comment was inappropriate, how can your conclusion based on your own suppositions bring you to the conclusion that he was inaccurate. Will or will not illegals be covered under one of the bills put forward? Does not the answer to this question prove Rep. Wilson accurate?

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    Re: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    The problems defined.

    Businesses can no longer afford Health Care premiums, meaning that either more Americans go uninsured or we place ourselves at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of the world.

    Quite frankly health care cost too much for what it delivers in general, and those costs are increasingly leaving the middle class behind.

    That is health care problem in a very over simple nutshell.

    The Republican problem is aptly displayed above, in an almost gleeful attack on a solution without anything that looks like a solution to the first problem.

    Do Republicans understand that throwing rocks and cirticism will not get you leadership? That these tactics, purely political, will not actually solve the countries problems? That simply seeking power for power's sake is not in our best interest? That we have enemies actually attacking our country, so maybe we can focus our efforts against them and not those whose sin is merely belonging to another party?

    Do Republicans think that if they toprpedo Heath Care reform that there will not be a severe voter backlash in a year? That the manufactured fear of death panels will erase the growing problem originally stated and that actual problems will still have to be solved at some point?
    i appreciate your civility and thoughtfulness

    you sound a lot like the president in that you're very good at describing the problem

    obama's solutions are far worse than where we are now and where we're heading, even

    the republicans' problems don't exist, they will fill leadership's void like a vacuum, like physics

    just as obama came from COMMUNITY ORGANIZING into the white house

    republicans will be considered heroes by most americans for stopping obamacare

    problems remaining with obamacare (which is dead, anyway, sorry):

    1. it fines individuals

    2. it forces folks who can't afford it to finagle for themselves that which they can't afford, hardly the help they were expecting or felt promised

    3. it bends the cost curve the wrong way, significantly (said cbo, july 16), actuarial underpinning of obamacare's primal impetus (which was economic, you recall, not social)

    4. it cuts medicare and medicaid half a tril (that's why seniors will see those who stop obamacare as saviors)

    5. it stripped e-verify, per the killing of heller in ways and means, july 17, leaving no enforcement arm to ensure the empty assertion that illegals will not be included (this is why the SIX are so fast backpedaling this morning, no?)

    6. it still looks to end of life costs for scary savings

    7. it generalizes abortion funding

    8. it taxes small business---in the worst conceivable economic climate

    9. it surcharges upper incomes, politically problematical

    10. it taxes benefits, ala john mccain (whom obama rightly beat up for even suggesting it during campaign, but now impounds vs cadillac plans are described repeatedly by obtuse obama as his favorite method of scraping together a pittance of the revenue required for his almost obscene ambitions)

    11. it's PERCEIVED (appearances are reality in politics) as foot in the door incrementalism towards single payer, the buzziest issue will be the inability of privates to compete with subsidized publics

    12. no one, not even folks in his own party, TRUST this president

    13. i have never seen, on the other hand, any president make a bid that ASKS for so MUCH trust

    14. obamacare as currently envisioned is BY FAR the greatest DOMESTIC political issue in us history

    15. and yet no one knows, for example, exactly what a co op is (even folks like baucus and durbin), thus we all have to TRUST him

    16. no one knows exactly what he means by "insurance exchanges," we only know sorta what he means (most people are coming to think HE doesn't even know exactly what he means)---again, astronomical amounts of TRUST are being beggared

    17. he's not serious about tort reform, he really comes off as funnily phony on the subject

    18. hr3200 is dead, he's gotta start all over

    he should try for one focused bill per year for 8 years, hello

    universalism never did have a chance, he's not real bright

    sorry
    Last edited by The Prof; 09-11-09 at 02:44 AM.

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    Re: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    And yet Congress doesn't respond to the President's whim. There appears to be broad concensus between the two branches of government to create this forum.

    Ironically, most of what you are concerend about is exacty what Obama talked about. You are in essence getting most of what you want, but are peeved because Congress and the President sat down and talked jointly with the American public? Seriously?
    I have a couple of questions for you. You obviously are aware of the need to reform as much as I am. It seems to me that where we disagree are the methods of the reforming, specifically the bills put forward by the democrats and the gang of 6. My questions to you are:

    1) Is there anything that is being discussed as part of the bills (and confirmed such) that you disapprove of but are willing to sacrifice for the sake of getting a bill through?

    2) Is there anything that is being discussed as part of the bills that you disapprove of but are unwilling to sacrifice for the sake of getting a bill through?

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    Re: Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill

    Rep. Wilson wasn't lying, but I'd say he over-simplified the issue as well. As I point out in post #23 to the thread, there are circumstances where a "non-resident alien" would receive health care under H.R. 3200. However, I also point out that in post #29 that in a rather round-about way, the bill does ensure that as a norm "non-resident aliens" would not receive care or federal funding for same under the bill.

    Therefore, Rep. Wilson is correct, but only insofar as the circumstances would direct some illegal/non-resident aliens to receive medical treatment under current federal law. Still, I understand what Rep. Wilson and others want on this sensative matter...for the wording in H.R. 3200 to just come right out and say it, "no illegal aliens will be authorized to receive health care under this bill except as expressly outlined in subparagraphs K, T, U and V of the Immigration and Nationalization Act." That would close this matter entirely.

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