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Thread: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

  1. #101
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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    Mr. Wilson called out Mr. Obama only when he said this,

    Wilson's outburst immediately followed Obama's statement: "There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

    House Minority Leader John Boehner said Thursday that, according to a Congressional Research Service report, illegal immigrants would indeed be covered, defending Wilson's assertion even though he called the manner in which he delivered it "inappropriate."

    So let me see who was in the wrong hmm I see Mr. Obama lied to the American People and Mr. Wilson called him on since he knew what had been in the various Bills.
    John Boehner lied (and not the first time he's lied, either). The CRS explicitly found that illegal aliens would be barred from receiving any federal money under the bill. Some of them could be required to buy insurance (good for us, we WANT them to have insurance), it could not grant them any money at all under the bills.

    In addition to the following, there have been multiple sourcing on this posted in multiple threads. Including links to the actual pages in both the House and Senate bills. I am not scrolling thru to find them, but here are some more that came up in a two-minute google:

    OBAMA: "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." One congressman, South Carolina Republican Joe Wilson, shouted "You lie!" from his seat in the House chamber when Obama made this assertion. Wilson later apologized.

    THE FACTS: The facts back up Obama. The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, but wouldn't get tax subsidies to help them. Still, Republicans say there are not sufficient citizenship verification requirements to ensure illegal immigrants are excluded from benefits they are not due.


    FACT CHECK: Obama uses iffy math on deficit pledge - Yahoo! News


    August 27, 2009
    CNN Truth Squad: Will health bill pay for illegal immigrants? An update
    Posted: August 27th, 2009 01:32 AM ET

    The statement:

    Complaints that those in the United States illegally would get benefits under the health-care bill now before the House of Representatives have been a staple of the raucous public meetings some members of Congress have been hosting during their August break. At least two people raised the issue at a forum held by Sen. Ben Cardin, D-Maryland, on August 12, and Cardin's insistence that "Illegal aliens will not be in this bill — period — the end" was met with a round of jeers.

    Facts and the Truth Squad verdict after the jump:

    The facts:

    The bill, HR 3200, would set up a health insurance "exchange," in which consumers could compare policies and choose a plan. It would create a government-run health plan to compete with private insurers in that exchange, and extend subsidies for coverage to people who aren't already covered by employers or federal programs like Medicare and Medicaid.

    It specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving those subsidies. Section 246, which is included in the part of the bill that sets up the exchange, forbids payments "on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

    But when Cardin said undocumented workers "will not be in this bill," he appears to have missed one point: It may require them to buy their own coverage.

    That's the conclusion of the Congressional Research Service, which issued a report on the topic this week. According to the CRS, noncitizens who can be considered "resident aliens" under U.S. tax law would have to buy insurance — and unlike immigration laws, the tax code doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants.

    "Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens … would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance," the new report states.

    Critics say there is no way to enforce the ban on subsidies for undocumented workers, since the Democratic majority in the House turned back a Republican effort to explicitly stiffen citizenship checks. But Medicare and Medicaid already require those enrolled to provide "a substantial number of documents" to show they're U.S. citizens or legal residents, said Henrie Treadwell, a professor of community and preventive medicine at Atlanta's Morehouse University medical school.

    Treadwell calls the issue a "red herring," since many of the estimated 10 million to 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States are getting treatment at emergency rooms already. Doctors are obligated to treat people who show up regardless of citizenship, and most of those costs are being absorbed by hospitals and state and local governments, Treadwell said.

    "It is certainly not just something that disappears," she said. "We are paying now for care that is not preventive, and we are paying millions."

    Some Republicans argue that the measure has left a loophole for undocumented relatives of legal residents to be covered. But Treadwell disputes that, telling CNN that based on her reading of the bills, "There is no loophole currently." The language in Section 242 of the House bill limits benefits to family members who are citizens or legal residents, she said.

    In addition, a widely circulated e-mail critical of the bill states that a non-discrimination clause in Section 152 would require illegal immigrants to be covered by a public health insurance plan. But the first line of that provision forbids discrimination "except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this act."

    The verdict:

    False. A new report finds the bill could require illegal immigrants to buy coverage, but it clearly restricts subsidies to U.S. citizens and legal residents.

    CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - CNN Truth Squad: Will health bill pay for illegal immigrants? An update - Blogs from CNN.com



    R40773
    Treatment of Noncitizens in H.R. 3200
    August 25, 2009
    Download Locations

    * Open CRS (User submitted)

    Summary

    This report outlines the treatment of noncitizens (aliens) under H.R. 3200, America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009. In particular, the report analyzes specific provisions in H.R. 3200, and whether there are eligibility requirements for noncitizens in the provisions. Within the bill, noncitizens are treated differently in several provisions. In 2008, there were approximately 37.3 million foreign-born persons in the United States. The foreign-born population was comprised of approximately 15.1 million naturalized U.S. citizens and 22.2 million noncitizens. H.R. 3200 includes an individual mandate to have health insurance, with tax penalties for noncompliance. Individuals who do not maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for themselves and their children would be required to pay an additional tax. Some individuals, including nonresident aliens, would be exempt from the individual mandate. fiNonresident alienfl is a term under tax but not immigration law. For federal tax purposes, alien individuals are classified as resident or nonresident aliens. In general, an individual is a nonresident alien unless he or she meets the qualifications under a residency test. Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens (i.e., meet the substantial presence test), would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance. In addition, under H.R. 3200, a fiHealth Insurance Exchangefl would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option. The Exchange would provide eligible individuals and small businesses with access to insurers™ plans, including the public option, in a comparable way. Individuals would only be eligible to enroll in an Exchange plan if they were not enrolled in other acceptable coverage (for example, from an employer, Medicare and generally Medicaid). H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in the ExchangeŠwhether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently. Nonetheless, only aliens who could be classified as resident aliens would be required under the bill to have health insurance. In 2013, under H.R. 3200, some individuals would be eligible for premium credits (i.e., subsidies based on income) toward their required purchase of health insurance. To be eligible for the premium credits under H.R. 3200, individuals must be lawfully present in a state in the United States, excluding most nonimmigrants (i.e., those in the United States for a specific purpose and a specific period of time). The exceptions for nonimmigrants who could obtain premium credits under H.R. 3200 would be trafficking victims, crime victims, fiancées of U.S. citizens, and those who have had applications for legal permanent residence (LPR) status pending for three years. It is expected that almost all aliens in these excepted nonimmigrant categories will become LPRs (i.e., immigrants) and remain in the United States permanently. Furthermore, unauthorized aliens would be barred from receiving the premium credit. H.R. 3200 as reported from the House Energy and Commerce Committee (E&C) would extend Medicaid eligibility up to 133 1/3% of poverty for populations that previously were not covered (e.g., childless adults and many parents). This extension of benefits could mean an increase in the number of noncitizens who already meet the immigration status requirements for Medicaid eligibility who would be eligible for Medicaid. Also, H.R. 3200 as reported by E & C would make eligible for full Medicaid noncitizens who lawfully reside in the United States in accordance with the Compacts of Free Association between the Government of the United States and the Governments of the Federated States of Micronesia, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, and the Republic of Palau, and are otherwise eligible for such assistance. This report will be updated.

    XML

    Open CRS - CRS Reports for the People

    Revisiting The “You Lie” Lie


    (snip)

    ... In other words, though the bills would prevent undocumented immigrants from receiving any taxpayer assistance in purchasing health insurance, the proposals on the table don’t do anything special to prevent an undocumented immigrant from buying health insurance with his own money. To characterize this as “insur[ing] illegal immigrants” strikes me as about on a par with claiming that Obama’s health care plans give ibuprofen to illegal immigrants. After all, nothing in the bill stops illegal immigrants from buying ibuprofen in a store! And the very same FDA regulations that assure citizens and legal residents and tourists of the safety of ibuprofen will also benefit illegal immigrants.

    http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/ar...ou-lie-lie.php
    Last edited by jackalope; 09-10-09 at 11:27 PM. Reason: website

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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    John Boehner lied (and not the first time he's lied, either). The CRS explicitly found that illegal aliens would be barred from receiving any federal money under the bill. Some of them could be required to buy insurance (good for us, we WANT them to have insurance), it could not grant them any money at all under the bills.

    In addition to the following, there have been multiple sourcing on this posted in multiple threads. Including links to the actual pages in both the House and Senate bills. I am not scrolling thru to find them, but here are some more that came up in a two-minute google:
    From the other thread on Mr. Wilson,

    "The Congressional Research Service has indicated that indeed the bills that are before Congress would include illegal aliens," Wilson said. "And I think this is wrong."

    Indeed, the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service study found that the House health care bill does not restrict illegal immigrants from receiving health care coverage.

    And this,

    "There were two opportunities for House Democrats to make clear that illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered by putting in requirements to show citizenships," he said. "Both of those amendments were, in fact, rejected."

    So shall we try this again Mr. Obama lied to the American People he knew that there was at least two different Adm. that were being offered as part of the Health Care bill.

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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    From the other thread on Mr. Wilson,

    "The Congressional Research Service has indicated that indeed the bills that are before Congress would include illegal aliens," Wilson said. "And I think this is wrong."

    Indeed, the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service study found that the House health care bill does not restrict illegal immigrants from receiving health care coverage.

    And this,

    "There were two opportunities for House Democrats to make clear that illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered by putting in requirements to show citizenships," he said. "Both of those amendments were, in fact, rejected."

    So shall we try this again Mr. Obama lied to the American People he knew that there was at least two different Adm. that were being offered as part of the Health Care bill.
    I actually quoted and linked the Congressional Research Service study just above. It concluded no such thing. John Boehner lied.

    And the House Democrats made it absolutely clear in HR3200. There is an entire section dedicated to saying that no money is allowed for illegal aliens.

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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    I actually quoted and linked the Congressional Research Service study just above. It concluded no such thing. John Boehner lied.

    And the House Democrats made it absolutely clear in HR3200. There is an entire section dedicated to saying that no money is allowed for illegal aliens.
    Ahh but that is not the final Bill that is being worked on as I stated there are two different Adm that have would allow Illegals. Also the CRS oput out said statement on Tuesday.

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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    Ahh but that is not the final Bill that is being worked on as I stated there are two different Adm that have would allow Illegals. Also the CRS oput out said statement on Tuesday.

    There are actually five bills working their way through congress.

    I linked the CRS home page, you can see all the statements they put out. None of them say what John Boehner said.

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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    There are actually five bills working their way through congress.

    I linked the CRS home page, you can see all the statements they put out. None of them say what John Boehner said.
    As of 2 hours ago they are changing the language to make it clear and close the loophole Wilson pointed out.


    Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill.


    "In the Senate, Democrats in the so called "Gang of Six," a group of bipartisan senators on the Senate Finance Committee which is the last panel yet to release its bill, began moving quickly to close the loophole that Wilson helped bring greater attention to.

    "We absolutely assure that those who are here illegally would not get the benefit of any of these initiatives," Sen. Kent Conrad said."
    Thank you

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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    As of 2 hours ago they are changing the language to make it clear and close the loophole Wilson pointed out.


    Rep. Wilson Outburst Leads Senate Dems to Close Loophole in Health Reform Bill.


    "In the Senate, Democrats in the so called "Gang of Six," a group of bipartisan senators on the Senate Finance Committee which is the last panel yet to release its bill, began moving quickly to close the loophole that Wilson helped bring greater attention to.

    "We absolutely assure that those who are here illegally would not get the benefit of any of these initiatives," Sen. Kent Conrad said."

    The Senate Finance Committee may well have not written that language in yet. They are the only committee who has not yet marked up and finished their bill. The other Senate bill most assuredly does contain the language (the HELP committee bill). The page number for the Senate bill's language containing the provision providing for no money for illegal aliens is posted somewhere in one of these threads. Or you could go to the committee and find the language yourself. However, it is already present.

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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    However, it is already present.
    You should call them up and tell them to go back to bed then. There is no need to scramble adding the two time rejected language anymore as you are cool with it as is.

    There probably should be a requirement for proof of citizenship somewhere.

    Rushing this thing through is a bad bad idea. They should break the bill down in small sections and address all aspects of the issues one at a time.

    A novel sized thousand page bill is unecessary and too convoluted to be of clear use and has way too much potential for abuse.

    Break it down into much smaller clear cut sections.
    Thank you

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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    You should call them up and tell them to go back to bed then. There is no need to scramble adding the two time rejected language anymore as you are cool with it as is.

    There probably should be a requirement for proof of citizenship somewhere.

    Rushing this thing through is a bad bad idea. They should break the bill down in small sections and address all aspects of the issues one at a time.

    A novel sized thousand page bill is unecessary and too convoluted to be of clear use and has way too much potential for abuse.

    Break it down into much smaller clear cut sections.

    Puh lease ..... the 'news' article by Faux' Carl Cameron contained not one line indicating anywhere that there was loophole in the Senate, and they were closing it. The only statement from one of the gang of six senators says:

    "We absolutely assure that those who are here illegally would not get the benefit of any of these initiatives," Sen. Kent Conrad said.


    That is exactly what all the fact checkers who have examined the question yesterday, today, last week, and last month have said. NOWHERE in the article is there an indication that the bill previously allowed money for illegal aliens, but now that Joe Garbage pointed out the problem, they've taken care of it.


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    Re: Joe Wilson Hands Obama Big Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Limt View Post
    Last nights speech could not have gone better for Obama. His salesmanship, as usual, was spot on. It was his most substantive communication on health care. And Joe Wilson literally handed him a victory by his outrageous, petty and crude behaviour.

    Wilson's behaviour couldn't have been better if it was scripted. The White House was looking for a foil, and I'm sure they are happy to see Wilson step up and volunteer.

    To be sure, Wilson's comments themselves really don't matter. But of course, the wackiness of it, the conflict within it, and his "I'm sorry but the Republican leadership made me apologize, apology," is great theater.

    The momentum has totally shifted towards Obama according to some polls taken after the speech. Now, I do not know if it will last, because as we all know per the Wilson comment, one small outburst, event, or comment can turn an entire effort into compost.
    Obama is a lying POS. Joe Wilson was right Obama got caught stating a bold faced lie to the American public on national t.v..

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