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Thread: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

  1. #41
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    It amuses me that Dems complain about Reps for 'trying to legislate their morality' yet here they are trying to legislate what every american has to do

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    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Government mandate or not, no one in a United States E.R. is simply going to deny life saving treatment to someone if they don't have the ability to pay for it.
    Well, that is a gray area. If you go to the ER for a headache only to find out you have a brain tumor that requires extensive surgery, and they find that you have good enough insurance not to be covered by a government plan, but not good enough to cover the cost; you might not get that brain surgery that might save your life. Not saying you will not, but i have seen it happen before.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  3. #43
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Sure we will just make sure the admitting in hospital emergency rooms is staffed exclusively with diagnosed sociopaths and psychopaths so that they will no the will have no qualms at all about denying life saving treatment to those that are uninsured.

    In this world we live in, you know, reality, where people have lives that are dictated at least partially by conscience, government requirement or not, no one is just going to let someone bleed to death in the street simply because they don't have the ability to pay for treatment. So any way you slice it, those costs will still be passed on to the insured.
    So are you telling me that the majority of the costs from treating uninsured people has to do with life threatening, emergency, bleeding to death in the street type of issues?

    Somehow, from over the years of reading on this stuff, those circumstances don't seem to be the majority that is the biggest issue across the country. There is a difference between a hospital choosing to help a dieing man, and being forced to give emergency care to someone that comes in with a dinged up wrist or a lingering cold.

    And indeed, if the vast majority of this issue is people who simply can't "Afford" health insurance, then why are you going to punish people who could afford it but choose not to...and if something happens to them may be financially well off to take care of it save for extreme circumstances...while letting those that are causing the problem continue to cause the problem.

    As I said, its nothing but a justification to take more money from some people and give it to others, only this time its using an issue created in part by government meddling in the first place to justify it while at the same time not dealing with the issue at all.

    Liberals keep harping on a right to privacy, a right to determine things for your own body. My health is my own god damn body and its private to ME and its none of the governments business to tell me what I must or must not do to keep it healthy, nor am I going to get on board with anything that further makes my body, my health, MYSELF "Government Interest". History has shown us, far to many times, what happens when you start making something come under the umbrella of what the government says it has a vested interest in and there's no way I'm going to give my body as one of those things. It amazes me at the hypocracy of liberals who shout down and decry conservatives non-stop over the abortion thing, over a right to privacy, over ones own choice to do what they want with their body and the government should have zero control over it at all.....and yet want the government interfering with our bodies in every other way.

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    that is a very good point, friend, the FACT of fines has been central to waxman-rangel, hr3200, since its inception

    check out the date on the AP source i linked a couple posts up

    it's stunning how little is known about what they say by some of the good folk who do so much talking in this forum

    the FINES are NOT news

    (except that BAUCUS embraced em, yesterday, ie, the SENATE)

    word is OUT already on what the prez is gonna do TONITE

    his entire presidency rides on tonite, we all know, as he addresses joint session summoned by himself to announce his NEW APPROACH

    y'know, the FINAL strategy underlying the obamacare push, the one axelrod and gibbs were UNABLE to articulate as recently as sunday cuz leadership STILL had not determined exactly what the heck it wanted to do

    shocking how IMPROVISATIONAL---and ADMITTEDLY so---is this admin concerning the comprehensive distribution of SIXTEEN PERCENT of the us economy

    not to mention, the health and well being of all legal and illegal americans

    why, we're still working on it, we don't want to commit ourselves, don't want to rule anything out---gibbs and axelrod both are OPEN about their still half-cooked status on mtp and this week with stephy

    well, word's out early on their FINAL "new approach"

    it's the OLD one---hr3200

    no triggers

    no co ops

    public option is IN

    baucus gave his SIX til 10am this morning

    LOLOLOL!

    there ya go

    hurry hurry hurry is the hark

    next up---3200 hits the floor of pelosi's place

    it's gonna have a LOT of trouble

    it will either win by a very few votes or lose by very few

    23 dems (or something like that) have already said no

    she can afford to lose 39, or so

    mike ross, bluedog leader, added his NAY subsequent

    makes 24+

    either way, she might clear HOUSE

    but upstairs is gonna be impossible

    pelosi/obama might try for reconciliation, it now looks like

    hurry hurry hurry

    obama characteristically CAVED to pelosi in private meeting yesterday

    obama always caves to pelosi

    seniors are gonna REVOLT

    mccaskill's HEAD is on THE BLOCK

    as well as two dozen others

    smart money is NO WAY can they get it thru on reconciliation

    but they might

    if they do, it's the end of the party

    3200 is extremely unpopular, problematic

    and for more reasons than just the fines

    it cuts medicare and medicaid half a tril

    it includes illegals, in that e-verify was specifically stripped (heller amendment)

    it generalizes abortion

    it taxes small biz

    it "surcharges" upper incomes

    it bends the COST CURVE the wrong way, significantly, said cbo---this is a BIGGIE, the actuarial underpinning of obamacare at its conception

    it taxes benefits, ala john mccain

    but, most in the gut TODAY, NOW, because politics is in the gut---it is PERCEIVED as foot in the door incrementalism to eventual total nationalization

    that is, the buzzy issue going forward from here is gonna be---privates are gonna be driven under by being forced to compete with a subsidized public rival

    hr3200 is a PIG, and that aint politics

    well, at least obama FINALLY made up his mind

    wed morning, early am, 12 hours before HIS deadline

    LOLOLOL!

    good luck with it, folks
    whatinthehelldidyoujustsay
    *insert profound statement here*

  5. #45
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    Thumbs up Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So are you telling me that the majority of the costs from treating uninsured people has to do with life threatening, emergency, bleeding to death in the street type of issues?

    Somehow, from over the years of reading on this stuff, those circumstances don't seem to be the majority that is the biggest issue across the country. There is a difference between a hospital choosing to help a dieing man, and being forced to give emergency care to someone that comes in with a dinged up wrist or a lingering cold.

    And indeed, if the vast majority of this issue is people who simply can't "Afford" health insurance, then why are you going to punish people who could afford it but choose not to...and if something happens to them may be financially well off to take care of it save for extreme circumstances...while letting those that are causing the problem continue to cause the problem.

    As I said, its nothing but a justification to take more money from some people and give it to others, only this time its using an issue created in part by government meddling in the first place to justify it while at the same time not dealing with the issue at all.

    Liberals keep harping on a right to privacy, a right to determine things for your own body. My health is my own god damn body and its private to ME and its none of the governments business to tell me what I must or must not do to keep it healthy, nor am I going to get on board with anything that further makes my body, my health, MYSELF "Government Interest". History has shown us, far to many times, what happens when you start making something come under the umbrella of what the government says it has a vested interest in and there's no way I'm going to give my body as one of those things. It amazes me at the hypocracy of liberals who shout down and decry conservatives non-stop over the abortion thing, over a right to privacy, over ones own choice to do what they want with their body and the government should have zero control over it at all.....and yet want the government interfering with our bodies in every other way.
    Nailed! Slam dunk! I suspect this whole public option thing is another sneaky way to use tax dollars to pay for abortions.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So are you telling me that the majority of the costs from treating uninsured people has to do with life threatening, emergency, bleeding to death in the street type of issues?

    Somehow, from over the years of reading on this stuff, those circumstances don't seem to be the majority that is the biggest issue across the country. There is a difference between a hospital choosing to help a dieing man, and being forced to give emergency care to someone that comes in with a dinged up wrist or a lingering cold.
    Hospitals, other than county ones in some circumstances, are not legally compelled to treat you for non-life threatening conditions in the event you are uninsured.

    And indeed, if the vast majority of this issue is people who simply can't "Afford" health insurance, then why are you going to punish people who could afford it but choose not to...and if something happens to them may be financially well off to take care of it save for extreme circumstances...while letting those that are causing the problem continue to cause the problem.
    I think any notion of requiring insurance would also be coupled with assistance to those that can't afford it.

    Personally, I don't like the idea of requiring insurance. However, we also have the issue of a large number of people simply opting not have it which results in the costs for the treatment should they need it being passed on to others. So simply doing nothing is not a good option. If you don't like the idea of requiring medical insurance to live or work in the United States, then come up with a better option, that is actually realistic, that addresses the problem.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Freedom: living your life the way you wish, not the way someone else wants you to.

    Anyone disagree with that?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Freedom: living your life the way you wish, not the way someone else wants you to.

    Anyone disagree with that?
    Not at all. However, liberty is also limited in that one individuals choices cannot limit the liberty of others. Moreover, there is the whole concept of social contract. In order to get to live and work in the United States, this great piece of prime real estate we have here, certain things are required of you. You have to pay taxes, you can't just dump toxic chemicals out in you yard, you have to insure your vehicle if you drive on our roads, and so on.

    Its not as black and white as those on either side would like it to be.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Hospitals, other than county ones in some circumstances, are not legally compelled to treat you for non-life threatening conditions in the event you are uninsured.



    I think any notion of requiring insurance would also be coupled with assistance to those that can't afford it.

    Personally, I don't like the idea of requiring insurance. However, we also have the issue of a large number of people simply opting not have it which results in the costs for the treatment should they need it being passed on to others. So simply doing nothing is not a good option. If you don't like the idea of requiring medical insurance to live or work in the United States, then come up with a better option, that is actually realistic, that addresses the problem.
    The cost of uncompensated treatment is about $40 bn a year.

    The total medical expenditure is $2.5 tn a year.

    Uncompensated treatment makes up about 1.6% of medical expenditure.

    There's not much of a "problem" to address.

    Question, though -- how many people who could afford insurance, but choose not to buy it, then go on to seek treatment and stiff a hospital on the bill?

    In other words, does this "solution" address any problem at all? If so, what are the numbers of these well-off medical bill stiffers?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Not at all. However, liberty is also limited in that one individuals choices cannot limit the liberty of others.
    No one choosing not to have health coverage limits anyone else's liberty in any way, shape, or form. That's absurd. The only thing that does is the government (i.e., liberals who favor this kind of thing) taxing you to pay for someone else's poor choices. The government doesn't have to do that. So it's the government limiting liberty, not the individual.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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