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Thread: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Do you understand how Medicaid works? Not everyone is covered. Not all conditions are covered. Even being poor doesn't automatically make you eligible. How exactly do you suggest we "fix it"?


    Um, what is our President and federal government currently talking about doing again?

    Is it not the exact thing that Medicaid was created for?

    On a sidenote, does insurance guarantee treatment? Why does everyone need insurance, if what we are all seeking is treatment? I dont know anybody who goes without treatment. Do you know anybody?

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post


    Um, what is our President and federal government currently talking about doing again?

    Is it not the exact thing that Medicaid was created for?

    On a sidenote, does insurance guarantee treatment? Why does everyone need insurance, if what we are all seeking is treatment? I dont know anybody who goes without treatment. Do you know anybody?
    Medicaid was created to provide medical assistance to those who were below the poverty line. If you believe it was created to provide a "choice" for those who could not afford it, then why do we have anyone who desires health care uninsured?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Does the proposal actually make it illegal, or just levy fines?
    If it does make it illegal, does it create a federal misdemeanor? Felony?

    If you do not have health insurance, are you arrested by the FBI, taken to court, arraigned and then tried?

    If not, then it is a bill of attainder in that it declares a person or group of persons guilty of some crime and then punishes them without benefit of a trial.

    Or...is it a civil penalty?

    A civil penalty is when a government agency fines an individual as restitution for wrongdoing by the individual. The civil fine is not a criminal punishment, because it is primarily sought in order to compensate the state for harm done to it, rather than to punish the wrongful conduct.

    For this to then apply, not having health insurance must be 'wrongful conduct' and be harmful to the federal government in terms of a cost to same.

    Neither of these positions are supportable, ESPECIALLY if the person in question has not had any health care costs paid not by the federal government.

    One must wonder what the costs of all those arrests, araignments and trials would be -- and how, exactly, the government would know that you committed the crime in the first place.
    What is the difference? Pretty much splitting hairs arent we?

    Your forced to get it either way.

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
    What is the difference? Pretty much splitting hairs arent we?
    Your forced to get it either way.
    The difference is explained in the question.
    If it is deemed criminal, what is the procedure for fining you?
    If is it deemed civil, how does it meet the justifications for levying civil penalties?

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The difference is explained in the question.
    If it is deemed criminal, what is the procedure for fining you?
    If is it deemed civil, how does it meet the justifications for levying civil penalties?
    Do you believe pigouvian taxes are unjust?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Medicaid was created to provide medical assistance to those who were below the poverty line. If you believe it was created to provide a "choice" for those who could not afford it, then why do we have anyone who desires health care uninsured?
    Well, it is the poverty stricken who cant afford health insurance...lol.

    "Choice" through government is a joke.

    People dont get insurance for lots of reasons. Simply getting people inusred doesnt solve anything. That is the wool that is covering your eyes.

    Insurance does not equal care. Insurance, the way it is set up right now, raises prices. As long as the individual is spending their employers money and unable to deal directly with the insurance company, it will never be different price wise. Middlemen always raise the price.

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The difference is explained in the question.
    If it is deemed criminal, what is the procedure for fining you?
    If is it deemed civil, how does it meet the justifications for levying civil penalties?
    It doesnt matter either way. They will just create procedures and justifications for it out of thin air.

    Either way, everyone will be forced into a new cost on their income. We are going to criminalize otherwise law abiding citizens for the sake of making sure government has a little more control over you.

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
    Well, it is the poverty stricken who cant afford health insurance...lol.
    Hmmm.... Even if you have a prexisting condition? Besides, your take on "afford" is subjective.

    "Choice" through government is a joke.

    People dont get insurance for lots of reasons. Simply getting people inusred doesnt solve anything. That is the wool that is covering your eyes.
    Have you considered dead weight loss, as well as the cost inflationary reactions to opportunity cost? Of course not, otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

    Insurance does not equal care. Insurance, the way it is set up right now, raises prices. As long as the individual is spending their employers money and unable to deal directly with the insurance company, it will never be different price wise. Middlemen always raise the price.
    Just answer me this. Why is is currently cheaper for a large business to offer someone insurance than it is for a small business?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post


    Um, what is our President and federal government currently talking about doing again?

    Is it not the exact thing that Medicaid was created for?
    So you're saying you want to incorporate the reforms Obama talked about within the framework of Medicaid instead of creating a new program? I would completely agree, except for the fact that it would get absolutely no support from Republicans or moderate Democrats. It's just not politically possible to do something like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat
    On a sidenote, does insurance guarantee treatment? Why does everyone need insurance, if what we are all seeking is treatment? I dont know anybody who goes without treatment. Do you know anybody?
    Not personally, but a lot of people do go without treatment because they cannot afford it.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-10-09 at 04:40 PM.
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Do you believe pigouvian taxes are unjust?
    This does not address my post.

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