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Thread: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

  1. #141
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But by you not having health insurance, you ARE hurting others. You just don't know it. I certainly didn't until I began to listen to both sides on the health care debate. How do you hurt others in this regard? By others having to pay that little extra hidden cost in their health insurance premium that goes towards covering the uninsurance for emergency room care. But if everyone has health insurance, that hidden cost goes away. As such, you've helped bring down the cost of health care.
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    With the exception that if you show up at a hospital uninsured and need treatment, they will pass the costs of your treatment on to everyone else. Thus, everyone else ends up financially responsible for your not having insurance.
    As others have already pointed out, the two assumptions above are just that, assumptions. Not having insurance does NOT equate to stiffing the hospital for one's bills.



    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Frankly, the United States is not the Philippines. Regardless of whether someone is a liberal or a conservative here, in the end, when you get down to it, we all tend to not turn our backs on our fellow man when he is in need. I would argue that is one of the reasons why we are arguably the greatest nation in the history of civilization, and a nation like the Philippines is still largely a third world nation.

    Government mandate or not, no one in a United States E.R. is simply going to deny life saving treatment to someone if they don't have the ability to pay for it.
    Then the hospital voluntarily accepts that risk themselves. They need not be mandated by law to do so.

    I have no problem with lifesaving care being legally mandated, primarily because there's no viable way to determine if someone is able to pay when they're being wheeled into an emergency room bleeding to death. That ends at the 'lifesaving care'.

    However, I have a GREAT problem with mandating that anyone in the ER MUST be cared for no matter why they are there and that's the issue we deal with now. ERs that are over run with people in there for stubbed toes and paranoid mothers.

  2. #142
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This twenty-something strongly supports a health care mandate, as does most everyone else I know. In fact, young people are the demographic most supportive of health care reform.
    everybody wants reform

    you would have to be brain dead not to want reform

    it is the type of reform that is controversial

    and now Obama has blinked on the public option. He has no spine

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

  3. #143
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    everybody wants reform

    you would have to be brain dead not to want reform

    it is the type of reform that is controversial

    and now Obama has blinked on the public option. He has no spine
    No one wants to see their pocketbook invaded by the governement, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #144
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    the tax payers have never paid my hospital bills. I broke my shoulder last summer, when I didn't have any insurance and trust me, the tax payers didn't pay the bill.
    I was using "you" in the general sense. If someone doesn't have insurance and gets in a bad accident where they're in the hospital for weeks, they could easily run up several hundred thousand dollars in medical bills. For most people, there is absolutely no way they are going to be able to pay that off.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    You must be mad as hell at the welfare class for ****ing with your property rights!
    I'm completely in favor of assisting the poor with obtaining insurance. I think there is a distinction to be drawn between people who don't have health insurance because they can't afford it, and people who don't have health insurance because they're irresponsible morons.
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  5. #145
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's fine, but then you can stop braying from the moral high ground about how my plan is anti-freedom, whereas your plan of forcing hospitals to pick up the tab is pro-freedom.
    You want to mandate a certain behavior. I gave a possible scenario where care can still be given but not be on the taxpayer's dime. Why? Because you asked for one. I never said it was my preferred scenario.



    I have done no such thing. I put the burden on the irresponsible people who don't have health insurance. If they don't have health insurance, then they are fined. It's as simple as that.
    You want them fined (i.e., punished) because they're not conducting their personal lives in a way you think they should. It's as simple as that.



    I'm even willing to make exceptions for those religiously opposed to insurance or health care, those who can afford to self-insure, and those who are so dirt-poor they can't afford health care even with subsidies (hopefully not many in that category).
    How does this make it better?



    Even you tacitly admitted that this was an unworkable solution, by proposing your silly pawn-the-costs-off-to-the-hospital solution. So unless you are actually prepared to argue that making emergency care optional is truly a workable solution, you can stop returning to this point.
    I'm perfectly willing to make it optional and let people take actual responsibility for their personal decisions. But you wanted other proposals. I proposed some.

    I also asked you to say something more than "it won't work" when rejecting those proposals, but you have yet to do so. You've only said "it's not better" or called it "silly." You've never once said how. So explain. Explain why it wouldn't work, in detail. Failing that, explain why it's "silly" or why it's worse than your preference.

    Can you? Or is it that you really do just want to keep the taxpayer on the hook and won't even consider any other possibility? Certainly looks that way to me.


    YOU brought up stitches, not me.
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  6. #146
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    I think Bobo ought have a "pull your pants up" tax or at least a fine.

    Maybe a "fat" tax. Anyone more than 125% of a government assigned weight by height should pay a tax per pound over. The rate to increase every year that person exceeds that limit.

    Maybe a "square footage" tax. Bobo could tax, every year a person that rents or owns a home that exceeds a national/State acceptable "standard".

    Then there is that "No Abortion" tax. Abortions would be free to all paid for by the government but any live birth would incur a tax.

    OH, the list is endless.


    Maybe an internet "blog" tax. Anyone that posts on a blog or internet site to include e-mails would have to pay a fee per post, up to a maximum number of characters, then have to pay extra for extra or over the limit of characters.
    I came into this world fighting, screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.

  7. #147
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You want to mandate a certain behavior. I gave a possible scenario where care can still be given but not be on the taxpayer's dime. Why? Because you asked for one. I never said it was my preferred scenario.
    Stop playing this game. If you aren't going to put your cards on the table, I'm done here. You can't simultaneously say "We don't actually need Policy X, because Policies Y and Z are also available" and then turn around and say "Well, I never said Policies Y and Z were better than Policy X."

    So let's get this straight once and for all. What do you think is the best solution for dealing with uninsured patients who end up in the ER and can't afford to pay their bills? And we'll assume that we've already tried to collect from the patient and he declared bankruptcy or died or disappeared or yada yada.

    A. Stick the public with the bill, resulting in higher taxes.
    B. Stick the hospital ER with the bill, resulting in a reduced quality of service.
    C. Make all ER care "optional," resulting in doctors clawing through a patient's pockets for an insurance card instead of treating him.
    D. Mandate that all persons must own a minimal amount of health insurance covering their ER expenses, in case they end up in the ER and don't have any money.
    E. Something else.

    I've already made it clear that I think Option D is the best, and therefore my other policy suggestions are predicated on that assumption. Now, what is YOUR answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    I also asked you to say something more than "it won't work" when rejecting those proposals, but you have yet to do so. You've only said "it's not better" or called it "silly." You've never once said how. So explain. Explain why it wouldn't work, in detail. Failing that, explain why it's "silly" or why it's worse than your preference.
    See the other thread.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-10-09 at 12:22 AM.
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  8. #148
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Stop playing this game. If you aren't going to put your cards on the table, I'm done here. You can't simultaneously say "We don't actually need Policy X, because Policies Y and Z are also available" and then turn around and say "Well, I never said Policies Y and Z were better than Policy X."

    So let's get this straight once and for all. What do you think is the best solution for dealing with uninsured patients who end up in the ER and can't afford to pay their bills? And we'll assume that we've already tried to collect from the patient and he declared bankruptcy or died or disappeared or yada yada.

    A. Stick the public with the bill, resulting in higher taxes.
    B. Stick the hospital ER with the bill, resulting in a reduced quality of service.
    C. Make all ER care "optional," resulting in doctors clawing through a patient's pockets for an insurance card instead of treating him.
    D. Mandate that all persons must own a minimal amount of health insurance covering their ER expenses, in case they end up in the ER and don't have any money.
    E. Something else.

    I've already made it clear that I think Option D is the best, and therefore my other policies are predicated on that assumption. Now, what is YOUR answer?

    See the other thread.
    The "game" being played here is that you continually twist what I say. Is it intentional, or do you just not get it?

    You asked for proposals to cover uninsured expenses which aren't on the taxpayer dime. I gave you some hypotheticals, and I never said I preferred any of them.

    I've PUT my cards on the table -- it's all up above for anyone to see. But if you insist on pounding your high chair and throwing your plate on the floor, then fine.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  9. #149
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Being in the industry this may help us sell more health insurance but I am not big on forced coverage. For auto insurance that is a bit diferent because there is always a direct impact ( no pun intended) on other drivers/property bu with heath insurance it is not that easy to make a direct line.
    “I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us “ f107HyperSabr

  10. #150
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The "game" being played here is that you continually twist what I say. Is it intentional, or do you just not get it?

    You asked for proposals to cover uninsured expenses which aren't on the taxpayer dime. I gave you some hypotheticals, and I never said I preferred any of them.
    Of course not. Why actually put forth an alternative of your own when it's so much more fun to attack *me* for advocating the only sensible policy on the issue? It must be jolly good fun to criticize the most practical policy on the grounds that alternatives exist, and then disavow any claim to those alternative policies lest you look silly trying to defend the logical conclusion of those policies.

    If nothing else, you certainly have an original debate style.
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