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Thread: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Let's be clear -- I'm referring to the policy of mandatory care backed by the taxpayer.
    No. What Kandarhar is saying is "mandatory emergency room care" not backed by taxpayer dollars.

    He's trying to explain why you can't get around it under present day laws. Unless you mandate that people who DON'T get health insurance pay a penalty for not having it, some will continue to use the emergency rooms as primary care facilities, and WE will continue to have to pay for their "unwillingness" to be covered.

    You, Harshaw, I believe are mixing the argument of "mandatory" emergency room care with general doctor's visit and/or non-emergency surgical treatment which are on two opposite sides of the health care issue, but part of the same problem.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 09-09-09 at 06:35 PM.

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    And here you are making an assumption of guilt and fining preemptively. That's retarded.
    And how is driving at 90 mph while drunk-texting not doing the same thing? It's a completely victimless crime as long as you don't have an accident. So why is it illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman
    But yet, you want to fine the scrooges who can pay their medical bills preemptively for not carrying the coverage YOU choose for them to have? **** that.
    Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, in the Massachusetts health system, they make exceptions for wealthy people who are able to "self-insure." I'm not opposed to a similar exemption nationwide.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman
    Which has what to do with the price of tea in China?

    We do punish those who commit vehicular homocide with criminal penalties. And everything you just listed goes beyond insurance issues and crosses into criminal behavior.

    In essence, you just went way off into the irrelevant because your argument isn't holding water as it stands.
    No, you just choose to ignore the obvious parallel.
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    No. What Kandarhar is saying is "mandatory emergency room care" not backed by taxpayer dollars.
    Considering he just said precisely the opposite, I don't think this holds.

    I'm going to base my health care views on the premise that the taxpayers are going to pick up the bill for uninsured people who end up at the ER.

    He's trying to explain why you can't get around it under present day laws.
    I'm saying he favors the present day laws which created the "problem" (which, at about 1.6% of total medical expenditure, isn't actually MUCH of a problem).


    You, Harshaw, I believe are mixing the argument of "mandatory care" emergency room care with general doctor's visit.
    I absolutely, and resolutely, am not.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Frankly, the United States is not the Philippines. Regardless of whether someone is a liberal or a conservative here, in the end, when you get down to it, we all tend to not turn our backs on our fellow man when he is in need. I would argue that is one of the reasons why we are arguably the greatest nation in the history of civilization, and a nation like the Philippines is still largely a third world nation.

    Government mandate or not, no one in a United States E.R. is simply going to deny life saving treatment to someone if they don't have the ability to pay for it.
    They do not like doing it there either. They just cannot afford to treat everybody for free and most people cannot afford health insurance. So what should their government do fine everybody that cannot afford to pay? Quality of life in the states is dropping. Middle Class is disappearing. to many households have both spouses working just trying to make ends meet. And now the added burden of mandatory health insurance they cannot afford? 50 million with out health care. Why? Because they do not want it? No because they cannot afford it. And what is the government is going to do help those who qualify? How? By giving them more tax dollars so regardless if the person is an ER walk in or not somebody else is still footing the bill. And how long before the Government decides it can no longer afford to help those that can not pay? Not to mention those who do not qualify for any assistance programs? Ohhhhh sorry you make 20 bucks a month over the redline. Can't help you. You know we used to have a public health system in this country. Reagan the working mans friend killed it. Massive mismanagement had caused great damage to the system this is true. But rather than overhaul the system Reagan abolished it.

    The GOP is still the GOP. It is protecting the medical/drug company interests and they will be well rewarded next election cycle via campaign donations.

    Moe

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Let's be clear -- I'm referring to the policy of mandatory care backed by the taxpayer. There are many other scenarios which don't involve the taxpayer and don't automatically toss someone out on the street. Hospitals can have contingency plans. They can have funds. They can have "uninsured" insurance. There are many ways to deal with things without burdening the taxpayer.
    All of those solutions just involve passing the costs from the taxpayer to the hospital (which didn't ask for the person to be brought to the ER in the first place). That's hardly better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    For the life of me, I can't understand people who think that not favoring a government plan, or a particular plan, equates to favoring "nothing." It's vapid, it's narcissistic, and it's dishonest.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Let's also be clear -- my point is that to the extent there is a problem, it's one created by your policy.
    I still haven't heard a workable alternative to mandatory ER care. And until I do, I'm still treating this as a given part of the health care system rather than "my policy."

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Yeah. As if any other proposal (such as the ones I referenced above) won't be declared "ridiculous" by you.
    Which proposal? Forcing innocent hospitals instead of innocent taxpayers to pick up the tab for irresponsible people, instead of making irresponsible people behave more responsibly? Yes, that isn't any better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Much easier to then impose your preferred way of life on people.
    As I said, the only health care I think should be mandatory is emergency care, and preventative care that could prevent the emergency care in the first place. I'm fine with everything beyond that being optional (but available to everyone), as it isn't my concern.
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And how is driving at 90 mph while drunk-texting not doing the same thing? It's a completely victimless crime as long as you don't have an accident. So why is it illegal?
    It's the difference between immediate threat of harm and your flimsy "possibility that every single person won't pay their debt". It's a retarded comparison.

    Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, in the Massachusetts health system, they make exceptions for wealthy people who are able to "self-insure." I'm not opposed to a similar exemption nationwide.



    No, you just choose to ignore the obvious parallel.
    I know what parallel you were attempting to draw. I stand by my assessment that it was an asinine attempt to relate two completely unrelatable things.

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    So who wants to explain to this Moron of an elected official that what he is trying is in clear violation of the United States Constitution, maybe he needs to go and re-read this thing called the 1st Adm. you know the right to choice, unless we have become Nazi Germany or Facist Italy or Communist China we still have the right to choice.

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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    All of those solutions just involve passing the costs from the taxpayer to the hospital (which didn't ask for the person to be brought to the ER in the first place). That's hardly better.
    It removes the burden from the taxpayers. I can see why you don't want that -- it takes away your entire premise.



    Huh?


    You continue to say I have no alternative to taxpayer-funded mandatory care, yet I've given you several.



    I still haven't heard a workable alternative to mandatory ER care. And until I do, I'm still treating this as a given part of the health care system rather than "my policy."
    OK, then ignore the parts of my post which are inconvenient. The point is removing taxpayer burden. But then, that would negate your entire argument for mandated coverage, so of course, that's not what you want.



    Which proposal? Forcing innocent hospitals instead of innocent taxpayers to pick up the tab for irresponsible people, instead of making irresponsible people behave more responsibly? Yes, that isn't any better.
    Thank you for confirming the point.



    As I said, the only health care I think should be mandatory is emergency care, and preventative care that could prevent the emergency care in the first place. I'm fine with everything beyond that being optional (but available to everyone), as it isn't my concern.
    You seem to have a rather broad concept of "emergency care."
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It removes the burden from the taxpayers. I can see why you don't want that -- it takes away your entire premise.







    You continue to say I have no alternative to taxpayer-funded mandatory care, yet I've given you several.





    OK, then ignore the parts of my post which are inconvenient. The point is removing taxpayer burden. But then, that would negate your entire argument for mandated coverage, so of course, that's not what you want.





    Thank you for confirming the point.
    The point is NOT just to remove the taxpayer burden. The point is to remove the taxpayer burden AND transfer it to the appropriate party in the most fair way possible.

    You have proposed making hospitals pay for the cost of irresponsible, uninsured people. I have proposed making irresponsible, uninsured people pay for the cost of irresponsible, uninsured people. Which seems more fair to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    You seem to have a rather broad concept of "emergency care."
    OK, please substantiate this. I don't even remember talking about what I consider to be "emergency care" in this thread or any other.
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Oh and one other item I would like to add to this thread if the Good Elected Moron wants to have fine alright then Congress must use this program and drop the very nice Federal Employee Health Bennies that they have. Nothing like being able to choice from over 250 different plans, mean while most of the US barely has two or three to choice from.

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