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Thread: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

  1. #111
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Kandahar favors mandatory treatment. Because mandatory treatment requires that taxpayers foot any unpaid bills, it creates a burden on taxpayers. So, because there's a burden on taxpayers, it becomes the taxpayer's business whether or not someone has insurance. That's the theory, right? It's everyone's problem, right?

    Except that it's a problem created by what Kandahar favors. Take the first sentence out of the above paragraph, and the rest of it disappears. There would be no taxpayer burden, therefore, it would not be "everyone's problem."

    Basically, Kandahar thinks people should be forced to live the way he thinks they should live, rather than how they would actually choose to live.
    Sigh. I'm really tired of having to explain in every single health care thread all of the impracticalities of allowing hospitals to pick and choose who they want to treat in the emergency room. But here we go again:

    1. If someone is brought into the emergency room bleeding and unconscious, what should doctors do first:
    A) Treat him as best they can
    B) Rummage through his pockets looking for an insurance card

    2. If the doctors pick Option B in Question 1 and the patient dies while they're looking, can his family sue the hospital for malpractice for wasting time?
    A) Yes
    B) No

    3. If the doctors pick Option B in Question 1, and don't find an emergency card or ID, what should they then do?
    A) Treat him as best they can
    B) Hold him in the hospital and do nothing
    C) Throw him out on the street

    4. If they pick Option B or C in Question 3, and it turns out he did have health insurance, can his family sue the hospital for denying him treatment?
    A) Yes
    B) No

    5. Do you think ALL emergency room treatment should be at the hospital's discretion, including decisions for reasons other than insurance? For example, if someone wearing a Yankees cap is brought into the ER, and the doctor is a Red Sox fan and refuses to treat him / allows him to die, should the patient's family be able to sue the hospital for malpractice?
    A) Yes
    B) No
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The idea of fining all taxpayers (or hospitals) for the irresponsible actions of an identifiable few is retarded no matter how you attempt to justify it, as is the whole idea of denying people emergency care with imperfect information.
    Exactly. So identify those few and seek compensation from them. But to demand another expense be laid upon a citizen who has no guilt or association with YOUR problem is asinine and, frankly, the most patently absurd tom foolery I have ever heard.

    I hope it gets shot down with overkill because it's just nuts. Another attempt by the "can't do for themselves" crowd to force nanny government on those who are doing well without that influence.

  3. #113
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Exactly. So identify those few and seek compensation from them.
    Almost by definition, you'll be unable to get compensation from them or they would've paid their medical bills. I doubt there are very many Scrooges who can afford to pay their medical bills and just choose to stiff the hospital because they're assholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman
    But to demand another expense be laid upon a citizen who has no guilt or association with YOUR problem is asinine and, frankly, the most patently absurd tom foolery I have ever heard.
    Driving 90 miles per hour down the highway while texting, while drunk off your ass and high on PCP, doesn't harm anyone either. Why not just punish those who commit vehicular homicide, instead of punishing these completely innocent people who have no guilt or association with their problems?
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  4. #114
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    There are three basic reasons why people/families fall into bankruptcy over medical expenses:

    1. they didn't have health insurance.

    2. they had inadequate health insurance.

    3. they lost their job OR had to take time off from their job in order to care for a loved one as a result of an accident and can no longer afford to pay their health care premium (while on FMLA).

    I suspect the scenario Harshaw outlined in responding to Kandahar (see post #109) falls more along the lines of item #1 herein. As such, Harshaw is correct. The liability is self-imposed and forced upon everyone else. But this is why the mandatory penalty would be so important - to force everyone to get insurance either:

    through their employeer;
    through Medicaid/Medicare; or,
    through the HIE

    And by the health care laws "standardizing" minimum health benefits that would apply to ALL health care policies, this "shared emergency room expense" would go away...poof! Gone (...or be significantly reduced which is still a plus for those who do have coverage). This would eliminate item 2 and possibly item 3 as well since everyone would have the same basic coverage and hopitals would spend less time trying to determine what level plan a person has or what coverage is under this BC/BS basic plan as opposed to thier premium plan.

    I can see the broader issues here even with the "flawed" H.R. 3200 bill (as some like to think of it, or "ObamaCare" as some like to call it). I would ask everyone to take off your partician glasses and try to see the bigger picture. It's difficult to do, but I ask you to try.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 09-09-09 at 06:16 PM.

  5. #115
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Sigh. I'm really tired of having to explain in every single health care thread all of the impracticalities of allowing hospitals to pick and choose who they want to treat in the emergency room. But here we go again:

    1. If someone is brought into the emergency room bleeding and unconscious, what should doctors do first:
    A) Treat him as best they can
    B) Rummage through his pockets looking for an emergency card

    2. If the doctors pick Option B in Question 1 and the patient dies while they're looking, can his family sue the hospital for malpractice for wasting time?
    A) Yes
    B) No

    3. If the doctors pick Option B in Question 1, and don't find an emergency card or ID, what should they then do?
    A) Treat him as best they can
    B) Hold him in the hospital and do nothing
    C) Throw him out on the street

    4. If they pick Option B or C in Question 3, and it turns out he did have health insurance, can his family sue the hospital for denying him treatment?
    A) Yes
    B) No

    5. Do you think ALL emergency room treatment should be at the hospital's discretion, including decisions for reasons other than insurance? For example, if someone wearing a Yankees cap is brought into the ER, and the doctor is a Red Sox fan and refuses to treat him / allows him to die, should the patient's family be able to sue the hospital for malpractice?
    A) Yes
    B) No
    This is all a strawman. You came up with an intentionally absurd scenario which is hardly the only possible one in the absence of mandated, taxpayer-backed care.

    The point is, you're decrying a problem created by policies YOU favor, and you want to restrict freedom in order to deal with it.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #116
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    As such, Harshaw is correct. The liability is self-imposed and forced upon everyone else. But this is why the mandatory penalty would be so important - to force everyone to get insurance either:
    No, you're just forcing a second burden because of the problem created by forcing the first.
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    This is all a strawman. You came up with an intentionally absurd scenario which is hardly the only possible one in the absence of mandated, taxpayer-backed care.

    The point is, you're decrying a problem created by policies YOU favor, and you want to restrict freedom in order to deal with it.
    If the policy I favor (re: mandatory ER care) is the only practical policy, which it is, then we can accept that as a given. If you can present some sort of practical answer to all of those questions where optional ER care would be a workable solution, then be my guest. We can then discuss that issue more in depth. But until I see some sort of alternative to mandatory ER care that isn't ridiculous, I'm going to base my health care views on the premise that the taxpayers are going to pick up the bill for uninsured people who end up at the ER.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-09-09 at 06:19 PM.
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  8. #118
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Almost by definition, you'll be unable to get compensation from them or they would've paid their medical bills.
    And here you are making an assumption of guilt and fining preemptively. That's retarded.

    I doubt there are very many Scrooges who can afford to pay their medical bills and just choose to stiff the hospital because they're assholes.
    But yet, you want to fine the scrooges who can pay their medical bills preemptively for not carrying the coverage YOU choose for them to have? **** that.


    Driving 90 miles per hour down the highway while texting, while drunk off your ass and high on PCP, doesn't harm anyone either.
    Which has what to do with the price of tea in China?

    Why not just punish those who commit vehicular homicide, instead of punishing these completely innocent people who have no guilt or association with their problems?
    We do punish those who commit vehicular homocide with criminal penalties. And everything you just listed goes beyond insurance issues and crosses into criminal behavior.

    In essence, you just went way off into the irrelevant because your argument isn't holding water as it stands.

  9. #119
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No, you're just forcing a second burden because of the problem created by forcing the first.
    Burden it may be, but the outcome as a result of not having health insurance remains the same: the tax paying citizens pick-up the tab for those who either choose not to get insurance if they can afford it, or they can't afford it and we all pay a small price on their behalf anyway.

    The only viable solution that really makes sense to remove this unwanted burden is to mandate that everyone has health insurance by some means - private or government sponsored (Medicaid, Medicare or the HIE). Then and only then will this burden go away.

    Now, I see Kandahar's point and it's a very valid one based on the emergency room scenarion he outlined. To do nothing means the hospital and/or the attending physician runs the risk of being sued when he could have done something to safe a life. To do something under current health care laws means WE bear the burden. I understand you'd rather have that burden rest with the individual, but unless stricter penalties are imposed on the leatch who walked out on their emergency room bill, he/she would likely just go into default and never pay anyway leaving US with the bill regardless. Hence, the no-insurance penalty. Like it or not, but problem resolved.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 09-09-09 at 06:27 PM.

  10. #120
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    Re: Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If the policies I favor (re: mandatory ER care) are the only practical policy
    Let's be clear -- I'm referring to the policy of mandatory care backed by the taxpayer. There are many other scenarios which don't involve the taxpayer and don't automatically toss someone out on the street. Hospitals can have contingency plans. They can have funds. They can have "uninsured" insurance. There are many ways to deal with things without burdening the taxpayer.

    Siiiiigh.

    For the life of me, I can't understand people who think that not favoring a government plan, or a particular plan, equates to favoring "nothing." It's vapid, it's narcissistic, and it's dishonest.

    Let's also be clear -- my point is that to the extent there is a problem, it's one created by your policy.


    But until I see some sort of alternative to mandatory ER care that isn't ridiculous
    Yeah. As if any other proposal (such as the ones I referenced above) won't be declared "ridiculous" by you.


    I'm going to base my health care views on the premise that the taxpayers are going to pick up the bill for uninsured people who end up at the ER.
    Much easier to then impose your preferred way of life on people.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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