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Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

Scorpion89

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Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela | Latin America News | World News | Comcast.net

CARACAS, Venezuela — Tens of thousands marched through Venezuela's capital on Saturday to protest what they call growing authoritarianism by President Hugo Chavez.

A few thousand of the president's backers held a separate counter-rally to express support for the government's policies.

Anti-Chavez protesters, many of them wearing white, filled the streets of Caracas, denouncing recent arrests of opposition members for alleged violence during protests and a new education law that critics fear could lead to indoctrination in schools.

"It's very concerning because education is Venezuela's future," said 23-year-old engineering student Carlos Delgado, who also complained of soaring inflation and rampant crime after more than a decade under Chavez.

Very interesting that this protest came when Mr. Chavez is in Iran wonder if he will cut his trips short and return back to Venezuela.
 
I have somewhat mixed sentiments about Chavez, but claims of his authoritarianism and tyrannical dictatorship don't have much merit, though I do believe he's excessively autocratic. That said, Delgado's claim of "no improvement" is decidedly untrue and flatly contradicted by statistical evidence of reduced unemployment and poverty brought about by the Chavez administration.
 
I have somewhat mixed sentiments about Chavez, but claims of his authoritarianism and tyrannical dictatorship don't have much merit, though I do believe he's excessively autocratic. That said, Delgado's claim of "no improvement" is decidedly untrue and flatly contradicted by statistical evidence of reduced unemployment and poverty brought about by the Chavez administration.

I have no proof of what I'm about to say,but you put a lot of faith in what you read and statistical evidence that is on the internet.
Sometimes what is written and what is true are two very different things,especially in third world countries,and here also.
 
Looks like the people are speaking out, against Chavez. A revolution next door will be an interesting thing to watch.
I wonder if the Russian Navy visiting is part of the upcoming soap opera?
 
Looks like the people are speaking out, against Chavez. A revolution next door will be an interesting thing to watch.
I wonder if the Russian Navy visiting is part of the upcoming soap opera?

As long as Chavez makes improvements to the economy, through authotarianism or not, then the opposition will never be powerful enough to revolute.
 
As long as Chavez makes improvements to the economy, through authotarianism or not, then the opposition will never be powerful enough to revolute.

really depends on the military, will they be willing to fire on unarmed citizens if Chavez orders it?
 
really depends on the military, will they be willing to fire on unarmed citizens if Chavez orders it?

All depends on his cult of personality :lol:

If he can get the people to love him and see him as a divine, the way they saw Hitler, then you can bet your arse they will.
 
Well lets see what happens today if there as large of crowds as yesterday I could see Mr. Chavez cutting his trip short and heading back home.

As for the Military yep that is the wild card in this whole thing. Allot of Officer were not to happen when Mr. Chavez arrest on of the most Popular General and there ahs been some rumbling in the Ranks.
 
I have no proof of what I'm about to say,but you put a lot of faith in what you read and statistical evidence that is on the internet.

That's not true. I always try and balance my perspective, which has certainly been the case when it comes to Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution specifically.
 
It's not anything to worry about, or cheer for if you are an imperialist. The crowds are tiny in comparison to what pro Chavez rallies attract, and certainly far less than vote for President Chavez and the revolution. We have learned from 2002 that if these bandits and terrorists try to seize power then they will fail, the people will revolt.

As for the point about the military, that is not going to happen. I have faith the military are not stupid, they saw in the coup what this "opposition" is, a violent, murderous beast. And Chavez is unlikely to order shots on unarmed people, if for nothing else, that is the tactic of the opposition, that is what they do, that is what the did in 2002 and Chavez is above their level.
 
I have somewhat mixed sentiments about Chavez, but claims of his authoritarianism and tyrannical dictatorship don't have much merit, though I do believe he's excessively autocratic. That said, Delgado's claim of "no improvement" is decidedly untrue and flatly contradicted by statistical evidence of reduced unemployment and poverty brought about by the Chavez administration.

The old saying that there's "lies, damn lies, and statistics" is particularly true in Latin America, where the powers-that-be see statistics as more of a game than something to find accurate measurements with.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to the government, an unemployed person is a citizen above the age of 15 who has been seeking employment for more than one week.[27] But, according to The Boston Globe, critics say that the government defines "informal workers, such as street vendors, as employed, and exclud[es] adults who are studying in missions from unemployment numbers." Critics also point to figures released by the president of the Venezuelan National Statistics Institute, Elías Eljuri, which showed that poverty had risen by more than 10% under Chávez (to 53% in 2004). Chávez called for a new measure of poverty, a "social well-being index". Under this new definition, poverty registers at 40%.

As it happens, Chavez is a perfect example of proof that not everyone who considers themselves socialist subscribes to your definition of socialism. Chavez seeks socialism in his country, and yet what he seeks is what someone like you would describe as "state-capitalism". Nevertheless, he's become something of a Marxist hero (just look at Joe Castro down there, who thinks that anyone who opposes the guy is "imperialist").
 
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The old saying that there's "lies, damn lies, and statistics" is particularly true in Latin America, where the powers-that-be see statistics as more of a game than something to find accurate measurements with.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apart from your curious exclusion of "[t]he World Bank calculated a 10% drop in poverty," have you read the source that was referenced in your excerpt of the Wikipedia article? It begins with a quotation of Elijuri claiming "hay que ser bien ciego para decir que la pobreza ha incrementado en los ultimos anos en el pais," which means "one needs to be quite blind to say that poverty has increased in recent years in the country." Not very promising for your sentiments...apart from that, your skewed focus ignored several other important factors. The first is economic growth. As noted in The Chávez Administration at 10 Years: The Economy and Social Indicators:

The current economic expansion began when the government got control over the national oil company in the first quarter of 2003. Since then, real (inflation-adjusted) GDP has nearly doubled, growing by 94.7 percent in 5.25 years, or 13.5 percent annually.

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Moreover, as the socialist economist Robin Hahnel claims in Venezuela: Not What You Think (in a quite contrary perspective), this economic growth has also had the effect of combating unemployment.

Like most Latin American economies, the Venezuelan economy deteriorated during the 1980s and most of the 1990s. From 1998 to 2003 real per capita GDP continued to stagnate while the Chavez government survived two general strikes by the largest Venezuelan business association, a military coup, and finally a devastating two month strike by the state owned oil company. However, after Chavez survived the opposition sponsored recall election, annual economic growth was 18.3% in 2004, 10.3% in 2005, and 10.3% in 2006, and the unemployment rate fell from 18.4 % in June 2003 to 8.3% in June 2007. Moreover, most of the growth was in the non-oil sectors of the economy, as the oil sector barely grew during 2005 and 2006. While this impressive growth would not have been possible without the rise in international oil prices, it also would not have been possible had the Chavez government not ignored the warnings of neoliberal critics and pursued aggressive expansionary fiscal and monetary policies.

Even if you claim that there exist analytical deficiencies in measurement of unemployment and poverty, it seems quite sharply distinct to claim that there has been no substantial decrease, or more absurdly, an increase.

As it happens, Chavez is a perfect example of proof that not everyone who considers themselves socialist subscribes to your definition of socialism. Chavez seeks socialism in his country, and yet what he seeks is what someone like you would describe as "state-capitalism".

Actually, my belief is that Venezuela has enjoyed recent prosperity because they have not sought to utilize the centralized state capitalist model of the Soviet Union (inaccurately depicted as "socialist" by so many), and have instead promoted decentralized collectivization. Indeed, it is not possible to overemphasize the critical importance of participatory governance and the role of labor cooperatives in the economic reforms of the Bolivarian Revolution. As noted by Hahnel:

New worker-owned cooperatives not only provided much needed jobs producing much needed basic goods and services, they also featured what was soon to become a hallmark of Bolivarian socialism -- popular participation at the grassroots level. When Chavez was first elected President in 1998, there were fewer than 800 legally registered cooperatives in Venezuela with roughly 20,000 members. In mid-2006 the National Superintendence of Cooperatives (SUNACOOP) reported that it had registered over 100,000 co-ops with over 1.5 million members.3 Generous amounts of oil revenues continue to provide start-up loans for thousands of new cooperatives every month, and the Ministry for the Communal Economy continues to spearhead a massive educational program for new cooperative members. However, the ministry provides more than technical assistance regarding technology, accounting, finance, business management, and marketing. It also teaches participants about cooperative principles, economic justice, and social responsibility.

Hence, I would find that to be in ideological tandem with libertarian principles of decentralized social and economic structures governed through democratic frameworks, though as I've noted, I still maintain that Chavez is excessively autocratic and there are legitimate and principled libertarian objections to some of his favored policies and actions. The label "state capitalist" is inaccurate, however.

Nevertheless, he's become something of a Marxist hero (just look at Joe Castro down there, who thinks that anyone who opposes the guy is "imperialist").

Marxist hero? He's a hero to many socialists and progressives in general because of his leftist economic policies, but I don't draw an association between Marxism and state capitalism as many anarchists and other libertarians are irresponsibly prone to do. Moreover, Chavez is an anti-imperialist; he has been the most vociferous current opponent of many decades of anti-democratic interference in Latin America by hegemonic U.S. political regimes, which is a welcome sign of resistance.
 
We have learned from 2002 that if these bandits and terrorists try to seize power then they will fail, the people will revolt.

Let me guess here... I'll bet you're not a big fan of the Tea Party protesters, or those who oppose government run health care at town hall meetings.

In fact, I'll also bet you're not much of a free speech, or freedom of the press guy either.

.
 
Let me guess here... I'll bet you're not a big fan of the Tea Party protesters, or those who oppose government run health care at town hall meetings.

In fact, I'll also bet you're not much of a free speech, or freedom of the press guy either.

.

I am a guy who supports the will of peoples and their freedom from yankee capitalist domination. That is the guy I am. What kind of guy are you? The kind who supports coups against the most popular of governments, who supports the export of war and misery on the third world, a supporter of yankee imperialism and the murder, poverty and destruction that brings? is that the kind of guy you are?
 
I am a guy who supports the will of peoples and their freedom from yankee capitalist domination. That is the guy I am. What kind of guy are you? The kind who supports coups against the most popular of governments, who supports the export of war and misery on the third world, a supporter of yankee imperialism and the murder, poverty and destruction that brings? is that the kind of guy you are?

Thank you, master of the strawman, for completely ignoring the point and substituting it for your own.
 
Thank you, master of the strawman, for completely ignoring the point and substituting it for your own.

No more of a strawman than what you said. it's a case of like for like. When someone makes a logical argument, I return in kind with a logical argument. When one throws around blanket statements, I will throw around blanket statements. When it comes to dealing with me, you get exactly what you deserve.
 
I am a guy who supports the will of peoples and their freedom from yankee capitalist domination.

What a ridiculous contradiction.

You say "freedom from yankee capitalist domination", when capitalism itself is freedom. It's the freedom to start your own business, provide a product or service, and set your own profit margin for your work and investment. It's the freedom of someone else to offer that very same product or service, and offer it at a lower price to gain customers and make a living. And most importantly, it's the freedom of the people to choose who's products or services they want, and how much they are willing to pay for it. The people decide whether a product or service is worth the amount of money being asked for it, and therefore dictate the prices charged by that company, and whether that company succeeds or not.

Capitalism is the ultimate freedom my friend.

And since you avoided addressing my comments about you, I believe I'll avoid addressing the ones you directed at me.



.
 
Why derail the thread with disingenuous Orwellian proclamations about the internal structures of capitalism? The point made was that hegemonic U.S. regimes have previously been responsible for unjust incursions into the sovereign affairs of other nations, such as in the CIA-backed removal of several democratically elected heads of state and financial support of rightist paramilitary organizations responsible for mass slaughter. Chavez represents open and vociferous resistance to that through his own words.
 
Hes the new hero of the socialist left.He aint that bad right now but just like Castro, mao,stalin(nobody on the left admits it now but you research back enough there is plenty of support for the "experiment").He will end up being a fully fledged dictator.
 
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Can you provide evidence of such, or are we simply to believe that a head of state elected by wide margins several times who continues to enjoy widespread popular support after more than ten years in office and seventeen years in the public eye will suddenly revert to tyranny?
 
Why derail the thread with disingenuous Orwellian proclamations about the internal structures of capitalism? The point made was that hegemonic U.S. regimes have previously been responsible for unjust incursions into the sovereign affairs of other nations, such as in the CIA-backed removal of several democratically elected heads of state and financial support of rightist paramilitary organizations responsible for mass slaughter. Chavez represents open and vociferous resistance to that through his own words.

And the USSR kept to itself? It also got involved in foreign affairs. Anyway, why does anti-interventionalism have to mean pro-communism and anti-capitalism for you? Not all capitalists are pro-interventionalist and it certainly isnt part of the ideology to get involved with every foriegn affair. Unless it affects our national security, i too agree with you Agers that its not our place to meddle in the affairs of places like Iran and the Shah at the time for example.

Also, does pro-communism really mean anti-interventionalism all the time?
 
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And the USSR kept to itself? It also got involved in foreign affairs. Anyway, why does anti-interventionalism have to mean pro-communism and anti-capitalism for you? Not all capitalists are pro-interventionalist and it certainly isnt part of the ideology.

Nice correction there...I'm sure Russia appreciates it. ;)

Of course the Soviet Union intervened in foreign affairs (Afghanistan being the most obvious example), but U.S. ruling administrations have traditionally been and continue to be among the foremost of political regimes directly or indirectly responsible for anti-democratic coups and support of dictatorial political conditions throughout the world. This pattern has been particularly stark in Latin America, with the CIA-backed removals of democratically elected leftists Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala and Salvador Allende in Chile (who was to be replaced by the brutal military dictator Augusto Pinochet), and support of the Contras and the Somoza family of Nicaragua, Manuel Noriega of Panama, Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic, the Duvalier father and son pair of Haiti, Fulgencio Batista of Cuba, etc.

More than that, Chavez is a market socialist rather than a communist, but the traditionally exceptional support for interventionism among rightist capitalist regimes has come from the collusion between state and corporate power that characterized their political rule.
 
What a ridiculous contradiction.

You say "freedom from yankee capitalist domination", when capitalism itself is freedom.

Well lets start with the word domination first. No one who is being dominated is free, i assume that is a given, I doubt you will want to argue that.

From there I will build the argument. it is basically this.

P1) The United States dominates other countries
P2) The United States is a capitalist entity
P3) The US puts the capitalist system in those places it dominates
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C) Capitalism and domination are not mutually exclusive.

Which premise there is wrong? I don't see any of them as being wrong.


It's the freedom to start your own business, provide a product or service, and set your own profit margin for your work and investment. It's the freedom of someone else to offer that very same product or service, and offer it at a lower price to gain customers and make a living. And most importantly, it's the freedom of the people to choose who's products or services they want, and how much they are willing to pay for it. The people decide whether a product or service is worth the amount of money being asked for it, and therefore dictate the prices charged by that company, and whether that company succeeds or not.


There are not only 'freedoms to', there are also 'freedoms from'. Capitalism may give freedoms to, but it takes away much freedoms from, freedom from poverty, ignorance and subjugation being just a few.

The freedom to almost always depends on circumstantial variables. The freedom to start a business depends on having the finance to start that business. The freedom to buy what products you want depend on similar abilities.

I don't care about freedom to purchase or start a business unless my basic human needs are met, but capitalism destroys basic human needs, it does not grant them.


Capitalism is the ultimate freedom my friend.

Oh how I would love to see you go and tell that to the families of those murdered by Pinochet. How I'd love to see you go and preach to the people in Smokey Mountain, Manila or Ciudad Bolívar or the slums of Santiago about how free they are. Go and ask them "doesn't it feel great to be able to buy anything you want or to start a business"? That would be a joy to behold.
And since you avoided addressing my comments about you, I believe I'll avoid addressing the ones you directed at me.

I am sorry you feel that way, but I didn't avoid anything. For to avoid something implies intent. You where responding to my comments about bandits and terrorists, yes? I didn't and don't see any link to that and what you said. So I was not looking to avoid anything.
 
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Nice correction there...I'm sure Russia appreciates it. ;)

Of course the Soviet Union intervened in foreign affairs (Afghanistan being the most obvious example), but U.S. ruling administrations have traditionally been and continue to be among the foremost of political regimes directly or indirectly responsible for anti-democratic coups and support of dictatorial political conditions throughout the world. This pattern has been particularly stark in Latin America, with the CIA-backed removals of democratically elected leftists Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala and Salvador Allende in Chile (who was to be replaced by the brutal military dictator Augusto Pinochet), and support of the Contras and the Somoza family of Nicaragua, Manuel Noriega of Panama, Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic, the Duvalier father and son pair of Haiti, Fulgencio Batista of Cuba, etc.

More than that, Chavez is a market socialist rather than a communist, but the traditionally exceptional support for interventionism among rightist capitalist regimes has come from the collusion between state and corporate power that characterized their political rule.

Thanks for your post. On the note i think its not correct however that people associate capitalism with interventionalism all the time. I mean its not technically correct at all.
 
On the note i think its not correct however that people associate capitalism with interventionalism all the time. I mean its not technically correct at all.

When it's not, it's typically associated with the more leftist capitalist countries of Western Europe, not more rightist capitalist countries like the U.S., which accounts for the traditional support for authoritarian political regimes by rightist administrations in this country. I think it's a matter of collusion between state and corporate power myself.
 
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