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Thread: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

  1. #21
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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Why derail the thread with disingenuous Orwellian proclamations about the internal structures of capitalism? The point made was that hegemonic U.S. regimes have previously been responsible for unjust incursions into the sovereign affairs of other nations, such as in the CIA-backed removal of several democratically elected heads of state and financial support of rightist paramilitary organizations responsible for mass slaughter. Chavez represents open and vociferous resistance to that through his own words.
    And the USSR kept to itself? It also got involved in foreign affairs. Anyway, why does anti-interventionalism have to mean pro-communism and anti-capitalism for you? Not all capitalists are pro-interventionalist and it certainly isnt part of the ideology to get involved with every foriegn affair. Unless it affects our national security, i too agree with you Agers that its not our place to meddle in the affairs of places like Iran and the Shah at the time for example.

    Also, does pro-communism really mean anti-interventionalism all the time?
    Last edited by kaya'08; 09-06-09 at 09:42 PM.
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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    And the USSR kept to itself? It also got involved in foreign affairs. Anyway, why does anti-interventionalism have to mean pro-communism and anti-capitalism for you? Not all capitalists are pro-interventionalist and it certainly isnt part of the ideology.
    Nice correction there...I'm sure Russia appreciates it.

    Of course the Soviet Union intervened in foreign affairs (Afghanistan being the most obvious example), but U.S. ruling administrations have traditionally been and continue to be among the foremost of political regimes directly or indirectly responsible for anti-democratic coups and support of dictatorial political conditions throughout the world. This pattern has been particularly stark in Latin America, with the CIA-backed removals of democratically elected leftists Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala and Salvador Allende in Chile (who was to be replaced by the brutal military dictator Augusto Pinochet), and support of the Contras and the Somoza family of Nicaragua, Manuel Noriega of Panama, Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic, the Duvalier father and son pair of Haiti, Fulgencio Batista of Cuba, etc.

    More than that, Chavez is a market socialist rather than a communist, but the traditionally exceptional support for interventionism among rightist capitalist regimes has come from the collusion between state and corporate power that characterized their political rule.

  3. #23
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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    What a ridiculous contradiction.

    You say "freedom from yankee capitalist domination", when capitalism itself is freedom.
    Well lets start with the word domination first. No one who is being dominated is free, i assume that is a given, I doubt you will want to argue that.

    From there I will build the argument. it is basically this.

    P1) The United States dominates other countries
    P2) The United States is a capitalist entity
    P3) The US puts the capitalist system in those places it dominates
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C) Capitalism and domination are not mutually exclusive.

    Which premise there is wrong? I don't see any of them as being wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    It's the freedom to start your own business, provide a product or service, and set your own profit margin for your work and investment. It's the freedom of someone else to offer that very same product or service, and offer it at a lower price to gain customers and make a living. And most importantly, it's the freedom of the people to choose who's products or services they want, and how much they are willing to pay for it. The people decide whether a product or service is worth the amount of money being asked for it, and therefore dictate the prices charged by that company, and whether that company succeeds or not.

    There are not only 'freedoms to', there are also 'freedoms from'. Capitalism may give freedoms to, but it takes away much freedoms from, freedom from poverty, ignorance and subjugation being just a few.

    The freedom to almost always depends on circumstantial variables. The freedom to start a business depends on having the finance to start that business. The freedom to buy what products you want depend on similar abilities.

    I don't care about freedom to purchase or start a business unless my basic human needs are met, but capitalism destroys basic human needs, it does not grant them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Capitalism is the ultimate freedom my friend.
    Oh how I would love to see you go and tell that to the families of those murdered by Pinochet. How I'd love to see you go and preach to the people in Smokey Mountain, Manila or Ciudad Bolívar or the slums of Santiago about how free they are. Go and ask them "doesn't it feel great to be able to buy anything you want or to start a business"? That would be a joy to behold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    And since you avoided addressing my comments about you, I believe I'll avoid addressing the ones you directed at me.
    I am sorry you feel that way, but I didn't avoid anything. For to avoid something implies intent. You where responding to my comments about bandits and terrorists, yes? I didn't and don't see any link to that and what you said. So I was not looking to avoid anything.
    Last edited by Joe Castro; 09-06-09 at 09:50 PM.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Nice correction there...I'm sure Russia appreciates it.

    Of course the Soviet Union intervened in foreign affairs (Afghanistan being the most obvious example), but U.S. ruling administrations have traditionally been and continue to be among the foremost of political regimes directly or indirectly responsible for anti-democratic coups and support of dictatorial political conditions throughout the world. This pattern has been particularly stark in Latin America, with the CIA-backed removals of democratically elected leftists Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala and Salvador Allende in Chile (who was to be replaced by the brutal military dictator Augusto Pinochet), and support of the Contras and the Somoza family of Nicaragua, Manuel Noriega of Panama, Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic, the Duvalier father and son pair of Haiti, Fulgencio Batista of Cuba, etc.

    More than that, Chavez is a market socialist rather than a communist, but the traditionally exceptional support for interventionism among rightist capitalist regimes has come from the collusion between state and corporate power that characterized their political rule.
    Thanks for your post. On the note i think its not correct however that people associate capitalism with interventionalism all the time. I mean its not technically correct at all.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    On the note i think its not correct however that people associate capitalism with interventionalism all the time. I mean its not technically correct at all.
    When it's not, it's typically associated with the more leftist capitalist countries of Western Europe, not more rightist capitalist countries like the U.S., which accounts for the traditional support for authoritarian political regimes by rightist administrations in this country. I think it's a matter of collusion between state and corporate power myself.

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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    When it's not, it's typically associated with the more leftist capitalist countries of Western Europe, not more rightist capitalist countries like the U.S., which accounts for the traditional support for authoritarian political regimes by rightist administrations in this country. I think it's a matter of collusion between state and corporate power myself.
    There was a time the US was pretty isolationist. The true anti-interventionalists.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    There was a time the US was pretty isolationist. The true anti-interventionalists.
    There was, and that is why elsewhere I limited my discussion of US foreign policy to post WW2, because pre war they weren't so bad, minus a few occasions.
    "His (Che Guevara) life is the story of our era's most perfect man" - Jean Paul Sartre

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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    There was a time the US was pretty isolationist. The true anti-interventionalists.
    Was there? That may have been at a point when a lack of industrial and technological development in general prevented U.S. military supremacy and aspirations of political hegemony from being as extensive as they are today, not necessarily the benevolence of the political regimes of the time.

  9. #29
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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
    No more of a strawman than what you said. it's a case of like for like. When someone makes a logical argument, I return in kind with a logical argument. When one throws around blanket statements, I will throw around blanket statements. When it comes to dealing with me, you get exactly what you deserve.
    The point was, you are supporting regimes which have taken steps to restrain freedom of speech.

    Your response consisted of telling him that if he didn't agree with you he was an evil yankee capitalist imperialist, while completely ignoring the above point.

    I just thought I might point that out.

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    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    The point was, you are supporting regimes which have taken steps to restrain freedom of speech.
    Could you elaborate? I hope we're not going to hear about RCTV again; I'd hoped rightists had become a little more informed when it came to that one...

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