Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 62

Thread: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

  1. #11
    Sage
    Dav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    04-16-16 @ 02:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    5,539

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I have somewhat mixed sentiments about Chavez, but claims of his authoritarianism and tyrannical dictatorship don't have much merit, though I do believe he's excessively autocratic. That said, Delgado's claim of "no improvement" is decidedly untrue and flatly contradicted by statistical evidence of reduced unemployment and poverty brought about by the Chavez administration.
    The old saying that there's "lies, damn lies, and statistics" is particularly true in Latin America, where the powers-that-be see statistics as more of a game than something to find accurate measurements with.

    Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    According to the government, an unemployed person is a citizen above the age of 15 who has been seeking employment for more than one week.[27] But, according to The Boston Globe, critics say that the government defines "informal workers, such as street vendors, as employed, and exclud[es] adults who are studying in missions from unemployment numbers." Critics also point to figures released by the president of the Venezuelan National Statistics Institute, Elías Eljuri, which showed that poverty had risen by more than 10% under Chávez (to 53% in 2004). Chávez called for a new measure of poverty, a "social well-being index". Under this new definition, poverty registers at 40%.
    As it happens, Chavez is a perfect example of proof that not everyone who considers themselves socialist subscribes to your definition of socialism. Chavez seeks socialism in his country, and yet what he seeks is what someone like you would describe as "state-capitalism". Nevertheless, he's become something of a Marxist hero (just look at Joe Castro down there, who thinks that anyone who opposes the guy is "imperialist").
    Last edited by Dav; 09-06-09 at 04:37 PM.

  2. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Between Hollywood and Compton.
    Last Seen
    11-25-09 @ 12:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    5,497

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    The old saying that there's "lies, damn lies, and statistics" is particularly true in Latin America, where the powers-that-be see statistics as more of a game than something to find accurate measurements with.

    Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Apart from your curious exclusion of "[t]he World Bank calculated a 10% drop in poverty," have you read the source that was referenced in your excerpt of the Wikipedia article? It begins with a quotation of Elijuri claiming "hay que ser bien ciego para decir que la pobreza ha incrementado en los ultimos anos en el pais," which means "one needs to be quite blind to say that poverty has increased in recent years in the country." Not very promising for your sentiments...apart from that, your skewed focus ignored several other important factors. The first is economic growth. As noted in The Chávez Administration at 10 Years: The Economy and Social Indicators:

    The current economic expansion began when the government got control over the national oil company in the first quarter of 2003. Since then, real (inflation-adjusted) GDP has nearly doubled, growing by 94.7 percent in 5.25 years, or 13.5 percent annually.


    Moreover, as the socialist economist Robin Hahnel claims in Venezuela: Not What You Think (in a quite contrary perspective), this economic growth has also had the effect of combating unemployment.

    Like most Latin American economies, the Venezuelan economy deteriorated during the 1980s and most of the 1990s. From 1998 to 2003 real per capita GDP continued to stagnate while the Chavez government survived two general strikes by the largest Venezuelan business association, a military coup, and finally a devastating two month strike by the state owned oil company. However, after Chavez survived the opposition sponsored recall election, annual economic growth was 18.3% in 2004, 10.3% in 2005, and 10.3% in 2006, and the unemployment rate fell from 18.4 % in June 2003 to 8.3% in June 2007. Moreover, most of the growth was in the non-oil sectors of the economy, as the oil sector barely grew during 2005 and 2006. While this impressive growth would not have been possible without the rise in international oil prices, it also would not have been possible had the Chavez government not ignored the warnings of neoliberal critics and pursued aggressive expansionary fiscal and monetary policies.
    Even if you claim that there exist analytical deficiencies in measurement of unemployment and poverty, it seems quite sharply distinct to claim that there has been no substantial decrease, or more absurdly, an increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    As it happens, Chavez is a perfect example of proof that not everyone who considers themselves socialist subscribes to your definition of socialism. Chavez seeks socialism in his country, and yet what he seeks is what someone like you would describe as "state-capitalism".
    Actually, my belief is that Venezuela has enjoyed recent prosperity because they have not sought to utilize the centralized state capitalist model of the Soviet Union (inaccurately depicted as "socialist" by so many), and have instead promoted decentralized collectivization. Indeed, it is not possible to overemphasize the critical importance of participatory governance and the role of labor cooperatives in the economic reforms of the Bolivarian Revolution. As noted by Hahnel:

    New worker-owned cooperatives not only provided much needed jobs producing much needed basic goods and services, they also featured what was soon to become a hallmark of Bolivarian socialism -- popular participation at the grassroots level. When Chavez was first elected President in 1998, there were fewer than 800 legally registered cooperatives in Venezuela with roughly 20,000 members. In mid-2006 the National Superintendence of Cooperatives (SUNACOOP) reported that it had registered over 100,000 co-ops with over 1.5 million members.3 Generous amounts of oil revenues continue to provide start-up loans for thousands of new cooperatives every month, and the Ministry for the Communal Economy continues to spearhead a massive educational program for new cooperative members. However, the ministry provides more than technical assistance regarding technology, accounting, finance, business management, and marketing. It also teaches participants about cooperative principles, economic justice, and social responsibility.
    Hence, I would find that to be in ideological tandem with libertarian principles of decentralized social and economic structures governed through democratic frameworks, though as I've noted, I still maintain that Chavez is excessively autocratic and there are legitimate and principled libertarian objections to some of his favored policies and actions. The label "state capitalist" is inaccurate, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Nevertheless, he's become something of a Marxist hero (just look at Joe Castro down there, who thinks that anyone who opposes the guy is "imperialist").
    Marxist hero? He's a hero to many socialists and progressives in general because of his leftist economic policies, but I don't draw an association between Marxism and state capitalism as many anarchists and other libertarians are irresponsibly prone to do. Moreover, Chavez is an anti-imperialist; he has been the most vociferous current opponent of many decades of anti-democratic interference in Latin America by hegemonic U.S. political regimes, which is a welcome sign of resistance.

  3. #13
    Battle Ready
    Grim17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Southwestern U.S.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    24,139
    Blog Entries
    20

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
    We have learned from 2002 that if these bandits and terrorists try to seize power then they will fail, the people will revolt.
    Let me guess here... I'll bet you're not a big fan of the Tea Party protesters, or those who oppose government run health care at town hall meetings.

    In fact, I'll also bet you're not much of a free speech, or freedom of the press guy either.

    .

  4. #14
    Student Joe Castro's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Glasgow, UK
    Last Seen
    06-15-10 @ 07:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    196

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Let me guess here... I'll bet you're not a big fan of the Tea Party protesters, or those who oppose government run health care at town hall meetings.

    In fact, I'll also bet you're not much of a free speech, or freedom of the press guy either.

    .
    I am a guy who supports the will of peoples and their freedom from yankee capitalist domination. That is the guy I am. What kind of guy are you? The kind who supports coups against the most popular of governments, who supports the export of war and misery on the third world, a supporter of yankee imperialism and the murder, poverty and destruction that brings? is that the kind of guy you are?
    "His (Che Guevara) life is the story of our era's most perfect man" - Jean Paul Sartre

    FTQ

  5. #15
    Sage
    Dav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    04-16-16 @ 02:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    5,539

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
    I am a guy who supports the will of peoples and their freedom from yankee capitalist domination. That is the guy I am. What kind of guy are you? The kind who supports coups against the most popular of governments, who supports the export of war and misery on the third world, a supporter of yankee imperialism and the murder, poverty and destruction that brings? is that the kind of guy you are?
    Thank you, master of the strawman, for completely ignoring the point and substituting it for your own.

  6. #16
    Student Joe Castro's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Glasgow, UK
    Last Seen
    06-15-10 @ 07:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    196

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Thank you, master of the strawman, for completely ignoring the point and substituting it for your own.
    No more of a strawman than what you said. it's a case of like for like. When someone makes a logical argument, I return in kind with a logical argument. When one throws around blanket statements, I will throw around blanket statements. When it comes to dealing with me, you get exactly what you deserve.
    "His (Che Guevara) life is the story of our era's most perfect man" - Jean Paul Sartre

    FTQ

  7. #17
    Battle Ready
    Grim17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Southwestern U.S.
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    24,139
    Blog Entries
    20

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Castro View Post
    I am a guy who supports the will of peoples and their freedom from yankee capitalist domination.
    What a ridiculous contradiction.

    You say "freedom from yankee capitalist domination", when capitalism itself is freedom. It's the freedom to start your own business, provide a product or service, and set your own profit margin for your work and investment. It's the freedom of someone else to offer that very same product or service, and offer it at a lower price to gain customers and make a living. And most importantly, it's the freedom of the people to choose who's products or services they want, and how much they are willing to pay for it. The people decide whether a product or service is worth the amount of money being asked for it, and therefore dictate the prices charged by that company, and whether that company succeeds or not.

    Capitalism is the ultimate freedom my friend.

    And since you avoided addressing my comments about you, I believe I'll avoid addressing the ones you directed at me.



    .

  8. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Between Hollywood and Compton.
    Last Seen
    11-25-09 @ 12:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    5,497

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Why derail the thread with disingenuous Orwellian proclamations about the internal structures of capitalism? The point made was that hegemonic U.S. regimes have previously been responsible for unjust incursions into the sovereign affairs of other nations, such as in the CIA-backed removal of several democratically elected heads of state and financial support of rightist paramilitary organizations responsible for mass slaughter. Chavez represents open and vociferous resistance to that through his own words.

  9. #19
    blond bombshell

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    uk
    Last Seen
    10-19-12 @ 11:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    4,729

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Hes the new hero of the socialist left.He aint that bad right now but just like Castro, mao,stalin(nobody on the left admits it now but you research back enough there is plenty of support for the "experiment").He will end up being a fully fledged dictator.
    Last edited by mikhail; 09-06-09 at 09:29 PM.
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

  10. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Between Hollywood and Compton.
    Last Seen
    11-25-09 @ 12:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    5,497

    Re: Tens of thousands protest Chavez in Venezuela

    Can you provide evidence of such, or are we simply to believe that a head of state elected by wide margins several times who continues to enjoy widespread popular support after more than ten years in office and seventeen years in the public eye will suddenly revert to tyranny?

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •