Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 48

Thread: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

  1. #31
    Ideologically Impure
    Simon W. Moon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Fayettenam
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 02:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    16,891
    Blog Entries
    5

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by cmckinney View Post
    ... were brutally murdered by those who would benefit most from drug legalization.
    Current drug dealers have a lot to LOSE from reducing the penalties for drug posession. Govt supports the artificially high prices-- legal drugs are cheaper and subject to more competition
    I may be wrong.

  2. #32
    Sage
    First Thought's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    DFW, Texas
    Last Seen
    12-01-10 @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,218

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You've use Prohibition before to back up your stance on legalizing drugs:
    And my political stance has changed a bit since then. That's why it's a problem to cherry-pick past threads.

    The best example of what happens when a government has no oversight over the companies or 'the market' operating in it's country is China. Their ridiculous growth has come at the price of allowing companies operating in it to pollute the country's landscape, poison it's citizens and bribe every politician in sight with the government only 'stepping' in to save face and most of the time not stepping in it all.

    This ridiculous perception you libertarians have that 'the market' is going to put profit behind quality is simply ridiculous given it's track record with little oversight. The market has NEVER made an attempt at regulating itself because it knew it wouldn't be cost effective. Even to this day you have companies like Wal-Mart opposing unions, getting little kids to build their toys and paying off government officials in other countries so that they won't come around and inspect the atrociously low safety nets they provide for workers they pay a few dollars a day. That is what the market does with little oversight.

    Poisoned milk scandal widens in China, top dairies implicated



    China: Where Poisoning People Is Almost Free - Forbes.com



    'Green' lightbulbs poison workers - Times Online
    I asked for an example of when we have given it a shot(read: Americans). American and Chinese culture is quite different, as would be the results if we gave it a shot.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  3. #33
    Student MikeVFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    VT
    Last Seen
    01-24-12 @ 05:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    276

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by cmckinney View Post
    I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. These people were trying to break the dangerous hold on that drugs had over their lives, and they were brutally murdered by those who would benefit most from drug legalization.
    Explain to me how the legalization of drugs would benefit those who run illegal cartels?

  4. #34
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:01 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,018

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    And my political stance has changed a bit since then. That's why it's a problem to cherry-pick past threads.
    Do you know the definition of cherry picking? I presented a position that is clearly yours on this matter and asked you when it was okay to use Prohibition as an example and when it wasn't. The only person who is clearly cherry picking what parts of history to remember and what parts not to is you.

    I asked for an example of when we have given it a shot(read: Americans). American and Chinese culture is quite different, as would be the results if we gave it a shot.
    Prove that.

    But before you do :

    Let me get this straight. American culture and Chinese culture are quite different so you believe that if we allowed a complete deregulation of 'the market' they wouldn't engage in the same activities they do in China? Do you know why they don't do it already in America? BECAUSE OF REGULATION. They can't simply dump chemical products anywhere they like in America. Unlike China. They can't put whatever dangerous chemicals they want in their products. Unlike China. They can't pay workers whatever they want. Unlike China. Why? All because of regulation. Companies prove time and time again that when left to their own devices they'll care little about how much damage they do. They prove it in every third world company. From Nike to Disney World you'll find that these companies aren't looking to regulate themselves or for that matter set boundaries to what harm they cause. The fact that the Chinese allowed their government to turn a blind eye to most industries as far as regulation of any sort goes is the very reason companies go there. Keep moving the goal posts though.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 09-09-09 at 09:54 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  5. #35
    Every day I'm hustlin'..
    Lerxst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nationwide...
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,388

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    The OP has failed to make any rational connection between this incident and the move to decriminalize drugs. The attempt was melodramatic and dishonest.

    The war on drugs is a sham and waste of tax payer money. It's expensive and unproductive. Decriminalization of drugs is the answer. People already do them. They won't stop. Enforcement doesn't work.

    Criminalization of drugs drives up prices and prompts and increased level of violence in relation to the distribution process. Simply decriminalize them. Don't offer them for sale through pharmaceutical companies. Just decriminalize them. Put a tax stamp requirement on them if you must, or make a law requiring that income from the sale of any substance like drugs requires that the seller report the income on his taxes. Put the money saved from enforcement and incarceration of drug offenders into both drug and vocational rehab and education. Arrest and incarcerate individuals for any other crimes they commit. But not because of drug possession, sale, or use.

    You make plenty of room in prisons for other offenders. Violent types, burglars, sex offenders, forgers, thieves, DWI, etc. The bottom line is that the government cannot effectively regulate personal responsibility when it comes to vices like drugs and alcohol.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 09-09-09 at 10:54 AM.
    *insert profound statement here*

  6. #36
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
    stevenb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Gilbert, Az
    Last Seen
    11-28-09 @ 08:32 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,560

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    The OP has failed to make any rational connection between this incident and the move to decriminalize drugs. The attempt was melodramatic and dishonest.

    The war on drugs is a sham and waste of tax payer money. It's expensive and unproductive. Decriminalization of drugs is the answer. People already do them. They won't stop. Enforcement doesn't work.

    Criminalization of drugs drives up prices and prompts and increased level of violence in relation to the distribution process. Simply decriminalize them. Don't offer them for sale through pharmaceutical companies. Just decriminalize them. Put a tax stamp requirement on them if you must, or make a law requiring that income from the sale of any substance like drugs requires that the seller report the income on his taxes. Put the money saved from enforcement and incarceration of drug offenders into both drug and vocational rehab and education. Arrest and incarcerate individuals for any other crimes they commit. But not because of drug possession, sale, or use.

    You make plenty of room in prisons for other offenders. Violent types, burglars, sex offenders, forgers, thieves, DWI, etc. The bottom line is that the government cannot effectively regulate personal responsibility when it comes to vices like drugs and alcohol.

    But then the drug cartels will start assassinating the CEOs of the corporations that would take up making their drugs!

    There would be blood on the streets and many police / children / kittens would die from it!
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

  7. #37
    Sage
    First Thought's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    DFW, Texas
    Last Seen
    12-01-10 @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,218

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Do you know the definition of cherry picking? I presented a position that is clearly yours on this matter and asked you when it was okay to use Prohibition as an example and when it wasn't. The only person who is clearly cherry picking what parts of history to remember and what parts not to is you.
    Okay, then you did not cherry pick. You merely used a post from the past. My position has changed since then. Does that clear things up for you?

    Prove that.

    But before you do :

    Let me get this straight. American culture and Chinese culture are quite different so you believe that if we allowed a complete deregulation of 'the market' they wouldn't engage in the same activities they do in China? Do you know why they don't do it already in America? BECAUSE OF REGULATION. They can't simply dump chemical products anywhere they like in America. Unlike China. They can't put whatever dangerous chemicals they want in their products. Unlike China. They can't pay workers whatever they want. Unlike China. Why? All because of regulation. Companies prove time and time again that when left to their own devices they'll care little about how much damage they do. They prove it in every third world company. From Nike to Disney World you'll find that these companies aren't looking to regulate themselves or for that matter set boundaries to what harm they cause. The fact that the Chinese allowed their government to turn a blind eye to most industries as far as regulation of any sort goes is the very reason companies go there. Keep moving the goal posts though.
    I see a lot of speculation and no examples of when America has let the market stand on it's own, which is what I asked for.
    Last edited by First Thought; 09-09-09 at 03:11 PM.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  8. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You name a single drug company or company of any kind who is willing to risk a single lawsuit from the first family of a kid who overdoses and I'll name you a company who has never heard the word bankruptcy. Drugs aren't like cigarettes, they aren't like alcohol. You can and thousands do die from their first use of drugs every year. How easy do you think it would be to sue a company selling glue or meth regardless of how many disclaimers they put on the package? Hell, people are still suing and winning against cigarette companies nearly 20 years after they starting putting disclaimers on their packages and phone books worth of research have come out on how dangerous they are. This silly understanding so many Libertarians have of drugs and how their market works is always astounding. Have Libertarians even met drug dealers? They'll fight drug companies tooth and nail for their billions of dollars in income. And I'm not talking about fighting in a court room. I'm not talking about creating a better product. I'm talking about them finding the owners of drug companies lining them up and doing the same thing they did to the poor bastards in the article. Do you think the same people who were shooting judges and cops in Colombia for the Medellin Cartel are going to have a problem with offing a few CEOs from the States? They wont let some CEO in Philly make money from what has been their business for years. Seriously. You know nothing of the drug world and this isn't the 1920s.
    The only person who has a failed understanding of drugs and drug laws is you, since you willfully ignore the mass of data and empirical research which suggests time and again that your beloved drug laws don't actually accomplish anything...ever.

    Portugal decriminalized ALL drug use in 2001 (IMS) and none of the doomsday scenarios came true. No demonstrable increases in abuse.; no massive drug wars; no giant influxes of drug tourism; nothing. In fact, when compared to drug abuse rates amongst EU countries, Portugal has some of the lowest rates of abuse, ESPECIALLY when contrasted with countries that have stringent drug laws and enforcement. Even when reality refutes your flawed understanding of prohibition you still cling to your regressive - not to mention wholly inaccurate - perspective.

    I'll post the relevant information AGAIN, and hopefully this time you'll actually bother to read it:

    Drug Decriminalization in Portugal: Lessons for Creating Fair and Successful Drug Policies | Glenn Greenwald | Cato Institute: White Paper

  9. #39
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    03-31-11 @ 07:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    2,331

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Alcohol kills more people than all the drugs you have named, combined. Your point is what?
    That is because it is more readily available then meth, herion, etc. You'd be surprised at how many people are afraid of approaching drug dealers for fear of it being an undercover cop or a psychotic drug dealer. But if those drugs were just as readily available as alcohol, then alcohol wouldn't kill more people then meth alone.

  10. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    03-31-11 @ 07:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    2,331

    Re: Gunmen kill 17 people at a drug rehab in Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The only person who has a failed understanding of drugs and drug laws is you, since you willfully ignore the mass of data and empirical research which suggests time and again that your beloved drug laws don't actually accomplish anything...ever.

    Portugal decriminalized ALL drug use in 2001 (IMS) and none of the doomsday scenarios came true. No demonstrable increases in abuse.; no massive drug wars; no giant influxes of drug tourism; nothing. In fact, when compared to drug abuse rates amongst EU countries, Portugal has some of the lowest rates of abuse, ESPECIALLY when contrasted with countries that have stringent drug laws and enforcement. Even when reality refutes your flawed understanding of prohibition you still cling to your regressive - not to mention wholly inaccurate - perspective.

    I'll post the relevant information AGAIN, and hopefully this time you'll actually bother to read it:

    Drug Decriminalization in Portugal: Lessons for Creating Fair and Successful Drug Policies | Glenn Greenwald | Cato Institute: White Paper
    Do you have any idea what Portugal is like compared to the US? In the US, everything is fast paced which leads to an addictive lifestyle more easily, in Portugal people are generally laid back and easy going which leads to a life of what is your chosing.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •