Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 71

Thread: Sentenced to death on the NHS

  1. #31
    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Seen
    12-27-09 @ 03:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,010

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Nixon View Post
    And yet we pay less than the American private system for better healthcare. Lord Mighty it's a miracle!
    It's funny how this argument of expenditure gets turned around in the health care debate. Supporters of big government generally measure the effectiveness of their programs by how much is spent. Want to improve education? Increase budgets and devote more resources! Spend more per child! Want to decrease poverty? Increase budgets and devote more resources! Spend more on welfare and programs for the poor!

    It turns out that in the U.S., we spend more per citizen on health care, which by every big government logic should be a great statistic... but suddenly that's a bad thing.

    If spending less per patient is 'good', tell me how much you'd like to cut your NHS budget next year please. 10%? 20%. How about cutting it by half!?!

    Funny how twisted logic works.

    Last edited by Grateful Heart; 09-05-09 at 12:25 PM.

  2. #32
    Guru
    BWG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    South Coast
    Last Seen
    12-04-17 @ 11:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,203

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    What I find amusing in this thread - and other similar threads - is people that live with, use and pay for UHC in other countries like their system very well, thank you very much.

    Meanwhile people here in the U.S., who have the most expensive, mix-mash, disjointed, mosh pit, millions of uninsured health care system are saying...'Nuh-uh', you don't know what you're talking about...
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

  3. #33
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 02:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,092

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    The NTIMES had an article a bit ago about the US paying more than other countries. One of the authors conclusions was we pay more due to the fact that most medical innovations are from the US. We spend more on R&D.

    The article also pointed out that most nobel prize winners are from, or reside in, the US.

    One of the conclusions he drew was that Americans spend more on health care, in part, due to the much larger amount we spend on medical R&D and for the "best" medical professionals.

    Anyway, once a lot of the profit motivation is removed from the medical industry, at least if you beleive that article, we will see less medical innovation, which will greatly hurt the world over time (due to loss of medical innovations going forward).

    BTW, the "Better healthcare" comment is not as cut and dry as you might like to believe.
    Which is a load of crock. Of the 10 biggest companies in the world in terms of revenue in 2006/7 (latest numbers I could find), 7 are European. Of those you can clearly see (with the exception of Bayer) that the US companies are not "mega spending" on R&D when compared to the non US companies. While the biggest spender in 2006 was an American company the nr. 2, a European was not far behind and the rest of the top 5 was dominated by European companies.

    Pharmaceutical industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    yes it is wikipedia, however finding newer info is pretty damn hard since the industry protects it self behind pay sites and members only sites.

    On top of that, big US pharma spent much more on advertising than on R&D

    PLoS Medicine: The Cost of Pushing Pills: A New Estimate of Pharmaceutical Promotion Expenditures in the United States

    In fact almost double. So if anything, the thing that is driving up US prices is advertising..

    So basically it is just another excuse for an overpriced healthcare industry that is bleeding the US dry for every cent it can before the politicians figure out that they are getting taken from behind over and over again.
    PeteEU

  4. #34
    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Seen
    12-27-09 @ 03:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,010

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
    What I find amusing in this thread - and other similar threads - is people that live with, use and pay for UHC in other countries like their system very well, thank you very much.

    Meanwhile people here in the U.S., who have the most expensive, mix-mash, disjointed, mosh pit, millions of uninsured health care system are saying...'Nuh-uh', you don't know what you're talking about...
    You could just as easily argue that it's amusing for foreigners to tell Americans who like their own system (thank you very much) that they don't know what they're talking about.

    You could argue that it's amusing for people who benefit from the drugs, treatments, and medical advances exported each year by the U.S. (as a direct result of our private health care system) to tell Americans that we need to change our system.

    You could argue that it's amusing for people who wait in line for health care, the way we wait in at the DMV, to tell us that we need to change our system.

    You could make all those arguments.

    As a child I had the opportunity to experience government-provided health care as a military brat. "No cost" treatment doled out by Uncle Sam. It sucked. Thank you very much.


  5. #35
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Last Seen
    12-16-17 @ 11:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,812

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Which is a load of crock. Of the 10 biggest companies in the world in terms of revenue in 2006/7 (latest numbers I could find), 7 are European. Of those you can clearly see (with the exception of Bayer) that the US companies are not "mega spending" on R&D when compared to the non US companies. While the biggest spender in 2006 was an American company the nr. 2, a European was not far behind and the rest of the top 5 was dominated by European companies.

    Pharmaceutical industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    yes it is wikipedia, however finding newer info is pretty damn hard since the industry protects it self behind pay sites and members only sites.

    On top of that, big US pharma spent much more on advertising than on R&D

    PLoS Medicine: The Cost of Pushing Pills: A New Estimate of Pharmaceutical Promotion Expenditures in the United States

    In fact almost double. So if anything, the thing that is driving up US prices is advertising..

    So basically it is just another excuse for an overpriced healthcare industry that is bleeding the US dry for every cent it can before the politicians figure out that they are getting taken from behind over and over again.
    Got lucky and found the article I was orignally referencing:

    Poor U.S. Scores in Health Care Don’t Measure Nobels and Innovation - New York Times

    The six most important medical innovations of the last 25 years, according to a 2001 poll of physicians, were magnetic resonance imaging and computed tomography (CT scan); ACE inhibitors, used in the treatment of hypertension and congestive heart failure; balloon angioplasty; statins to lower cholesterol levels; mammography; and coronary artery bypass grafts. Balloon angioplasty came from Europe, four innovations on the list were developed in American hospitals or by American companies (although statins were based on earlier Japanese research), and mammography was first developed in Germany and then improved in the United States. Even when the initial research is done overseas, the American system leads in converting new ideas into workable commercial technologies.

    In real terms, spending on American biomedical research has doubled since 1994. By 2003, spending was up to $94.3 billion (there is no comparable number for Europe), with 57 percent of that coming from private industry. The National Institutes of Health’s current annual research budget is $28 billion, All European Union governments, in contrast, spent $3.7 billion in 2000, and since that time, Europe has not narrowed the research and development gap. America spends more on research and development over all and on drugs in particular, even though the United States has a smaller population than the core European Union countries. From 1989 to 2002, four times as much money was invested in private biotechnology companies in America than in Europe.

    Development?” (ostina.org/downloads/pdfs/bridgesvol7_BoehmArticle.pdf) Dr. Boehm argues that the research environment in the United States, compared with Europe, is wealthier, more competitive, more meritocratic and more tolerant of waste and chaos. He argues that these features lead to more medical discoveries. About 400,000 European researchers are living in the United States, usually for superior financial compensation and research facilities.

    This innovation-rich environment stems from the money spent on American health care and also from the richer and more competitive American universities. The American government could use its size, or use the law, to bargain down health care prices, as many European governments have done. In the short run, this would save money but in the longer run it would cost lives.

  6. #36
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Last Seen
    12-16-17 @ 11:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,812

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    You could just as easily argue that it's amusing for foreigners to tell Americans who like their own system (thank you very much) that they don't know what they're talking about.

    You could argue that it's amusing for people who benefit from the drugs, treatments, and medical advances exported each year by the U.S. (as a direct result of our private health care system) to tell Americans that we need to change our system.

    You could argue that it's amusing for people who wait in line for health care, the way we wait in at the DMV, to tell us that we need to change our system.

    You could make all those arguments.

    As a child I had the opportunity to experience government-provided health care as a military brat. "No cost" treatment doled out by Uncle Sam. It sucked. Thank you very much.

    I personally believe it's due to the fact that Europeans just don't know any better. They've had their system for ever, and have grown accostomed to it.

    Of course, they could make the same argument of our health care system, but I think there is enough factual data to show which system has the better results (with the big exception of number of uninsured).
    Last edited by buck; 09-05-09 at 02:58 PM.

  7. #37
    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Seen
    12-27-09 @ 03:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,010

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I personally believe it's just due to teh idea that Europeans just don't know anybetter.

    Of course, tehy could make the same argument of our health care system, but I think there is enough factual data to show which system has the better results (with the exception of number of uninsured).
    If we look at real survey data (as opposed to partisan message board opinions), we'll find that Americans, Canadian, and the British all rate the quality of their health care nearly the same.

    In fact, according to Gallop, more Britains are somewhat dissatisfied or highly dissatisfied with the quality of their care than are Americans. The British do rate higher on the affordability of their care. So we see a trade-off between quality and cost.

    Gallop Health Care Survey


  8. #38
    Sage
    jackalope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    08-08-14 @ 01:54 PM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,494

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    If we look at real survey data (as opposed to partisan message board opinions), we'll find that Americans, Canadian, and the British all rate the quality of their health care nearly the same.

    In fact, according to Gallop, more Britains are somewhat dissatisfied or highly dissatisfied with the quality of their care than are Americans. The British do rate higher on the affordability of their care. So we see a trade-off between quality and cost.

    Gallop Health Care Survey


    That survey was from Jan 2003, I tried to find one from this year, but I couldn't find one. I did find Jan 2006, which shows US satisfaction deteriorating. I'd suspect it has deteriorated further still since then. We personally have become profoundly more dissatisfied in the last three years, having had a 25% premium increase this year, 19% last year, and a 33% increase the year before ...


    Over the three years Gallup has asked this question in all three countries, the ratings in Canada have remained essentially unchanged, while the ratings have become slightly more positive in Britain and somewhat more negative in the United States.



    Americans, Canadians, Britons Similarly Rate Their Healthcare Systems

  9. #39
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Last Seen
    09-22-11 @ 11:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    484

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    The NTIMES had an article a bit ago about the US paying more than other countries. One of the authors conclusions was we pay more due to the fact that most medical innovations are from the US. We spend more on R&D.

    The article also pointed out that most nobel prize winners are from, or reside in, the US.

    One of the conclusions he drew was that Americans spend more on health care, in part, due to the much larger amount we spend on medical R&D and for the "best" medical professionals.

    Anyway, once a lot of the profit motivation is removed from the medical industry, at least if you beleive that article, we will see less medical innovation, which will greatly hurt the world over time (due to loss of medical innovations going forward).

    BTW, the "Better healthcare" comment is not as cut and dry as you might like to believe.
    Can you tell me where the world's first test tube baby was born? How about cloning (Dolly the sheep) and genetic studies? These are just 2 medical research breakthroughs which come to mind. You can't tell me that Britain doesn't do it's share of medical R&D. Yes, the US spends more on R&D but it doesn't benefit the people of the US, it benefits the drug companies. People in other countries get to use the same drugs but at much lower prices.

  10. #40
    Guru
    BWG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    South Coast
    Last Seen
    12-04-17 @ 11:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,203

    Re: Sentenced to death on the NHS

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart
    You could just as easily argue that it's amusing for foreigners to tell Americans who like their own system (thank you very much) that they don't know what they're talking about.
    I don't see many, if any, foreigners telling Americans that we need to change our system to their system. Primarily I see them defending their system from attacks from Americans and telling Americans that they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to lambasting their system - even though theres no such proposal to go to the Canadian or Great Britain type of system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart
    You could argue that it's amusing for people who benefit from the drugs, treatments, and medical advances exported each year by the U.S. (as a direct result of our private health care system) to tell Americans that we need to change our system.
    Big pharma and equipment manufacturers don't charge other countries for their medicines or medical equipment? We have never imported medical advances from other countries? We have that all locked up and other countries are like baby birds in the nest with their beaks skyward awaiting the next morsel from the almighty American medical community? Besides I have heard of no proposals to eliminate the NIH, where much of our medical research originates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart
    You could argue that it's amusing for people who wait in line for health care, the way we wait in at the DMV, to tell us that we need to change our system.
    Wait in line?...LOL...You make it sound as though to see a physician that one must go physically stand in a line similar to those lining up for the latest hot video game going on sale at midnight at Best Buy.

    You ever call and make a routine doctor's appointment? Guess what? You're now on a waiting list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart
    You could make all those arguments.
    LOL...I wasn't arguing. I was making an observation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart
    As a child I had the opportunity to experience government-provided health care as a military brat. "No cost" treatment doled out by Uncle Sam. It sucked. Thank you very much.
    You seem to have fared well and the earth didn't shift from it's axis.

    Keep the government out of my Medicare...LOL
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •