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Thread: How a Detainee Became an Assett

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    How a Detainee Became an Assett

    1. According to The Washington Post, Sunday, Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, mastermind of 9-11, went from "reticent" witness before waterboarding to conducting "terrorist tutorials" after

    2. So eager to cooperate was the hairy backed butcher, he asked for a blackboard and admonished agents to pay closer attention, the stuff he was teaching was important

    3. Indeed, KSM became America's "preeminent source" on Al Qaeda after undergoing sleep deprivation, mock drowning and other unpleasant experiences at the hands of our heroic secret service agents

    4. According to The Post, KSM's "spirit was broken" in the month after his arrest on March 1, 2003

    5. Incidentally, KSM was only captured after colleague Abu Zebaydah gave up crucial where's and when's after his enhanced interrogation

    6. After his month of misery, once he started cooperating, KSM was never harshly dealt with again

    7. "What do you think changed KSM's mind?" one former senior intelligence official asked rhetorically, "of course it began with that"

    8. Now KSM, it is true, later told reps from the Red Cross that he lied a little to his questioners to get them to quit being so hard on him, but his "false leads" are chased down, his misinformation is subject to correction by the legwork of agents on the ground

    9. Inspector General Helgerson remains noncommittal on the politically charged question of the effectiveness of EIT's, he does not say they worked, he does not say they didn't

    10. But even Attorney General Holder's chief apologist has trouble denying the obvious: "Certain of the techniques seemed to have little effect, whereas waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information," [Helgerson] said in an interview. "But we didn't have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out"

    11. Still, according to The Post: "Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of whom we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary

    12. Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn Bridge in New York"

    13. CIA agents present at the time got the impression, they said, that KSM, like other detainees, felt that it was ok to stop resisting after he had endured a certain amount of pressure

    14. "Once the harsher techniques were used on [detainees], they could be viewed as having done their duty to Islam or their cause, and their religious principles would ask no more of them," said the former official, who requested anonymity because the events are still classified. "After that point, they became compliant."

    15. Mohammed was an unparalleled source in deciphering al-Qaeda's strategic doctrine, key operatives and likely targets, the summary said, including describing in "considerable detail the traits and profiles" that al-Qaeda sought in Western operatives and how the terrorist organization might conduct surveillance in the United States

    16. The source used by The Post to discover these dramatic developments are the very documents released by Attorney General Holder on Monday

    17. Stunningly stupid politics, Mr President

    washingtonpost.com

    After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."

    These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques.

    "KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department.

    The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

    The Prof

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    And yet we have expert interrogators from the FBI saying that traditional interrogation methods are much more effective then torture (stop the "Enhanced Interrogation" bull, the US called it torture when it was done to our troops).

    Ex-FBI Interrogator: Torture "Ineffective" - CBS News

    A former FBI man who interrogated an al Qaeda leader said Wednesday extreme techniques used by the Bush administration were "ineffective, slow and unreliable" and caused the prisoner to stop talking.

    Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel behind a screen to hide his identity, said that his interrogation team obtained a "treasure trove" of information from Abu Zubaydah using a non-threatening approach that outwitted the detainee - even getting him to talk by using his childhood nickname.

    Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over, using simulated drowning, sleep deprivation and other harsh methods. He said those techniques caused the prisoner to "shut down."
    Last edited by ScottD; 09-01-09 at 11:30 PM.

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    that's nice

    enhanced interrogation turns khalid sheikh muhammad into "terrorist tutor," as headlined by the washington post, is DEVASTATING politics

    and yet it's right there in the midst of the very documents ag holder himself released

    LOLOLOL!

    for one thing, ksm is so FAMOUS

    and speaking of headlines---waterboarding is, well, it's so PASSE

    ie, DONE to DEATH

    the latest RAGE is all for---THREATS directed against kiddie relatives, MOCK executions, POWER DRILLS, 2nd hand SMOKE...

    LOLOLOL!

    most normal non-partisans don't really consider EMPTY THREATS torture

    hey, if you and your fbi ACADEMIC do, why, i think that's just GREAT!

    unfortunately, the post's banner blares one unbelievably dumb obama

    oh well

    it really has nothing to do with you or me

    it's just SUICIDE politics, that's all it is

    the BIG STORY of THIS week

    so sorry

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    So let me get this straight they tortured KSM for a month and he then started talking about the operational structure of Al-Qaida. Tell me again how does torture justify the outcome? We have been able to get this information through normal interrogation and there's nothing to say we couldn't have gotten this otherwise. So now the whole ticking time bomb scenario apologists like to use doesn't exist as he did not stop any plots from his torture. Again torture is not effective. Again though we have anonymous sources revealing this information.
    From the IG Report:

    The effectiveness of particular interrogation techniques in eliciting information that might not otherwise have been obtained cannot be so easily measured, however.
    In other words there's no proof that the information couldn't have been gotten without torture.

    Also lets talk about the rest of the article since you conveniently skip whatever doesn't make your points

    After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."
    This doesn't sound like what you described about him breaking within a month of being captured. Instead he was there over a year.

    "But we didn't have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out."
    They could not confirm the actual quality of the information. During interrogation KSM gave up a lot of false leads which wasted manhours for the government.

    Again you're cherry picking from the article to try to support your conclusion.

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    Glenn Greenwald thoroughly debunked this Washington Post article.

    He took it apart piece by piece.

    He even predicted the wing nuts would spread this misinformation like wildfire.

    Observe how a journalist with integrity and principles can see right through it.

    The Washington Post's Cheney-ite defense of torture - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    1. Notice the source of the article.

    "Two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified"; "one former senior intelligence official said this week after being asked about the effect of waterboarding"; "one former U.S. official with detailed knowledge of how the interrogations were carried out said"; "One former agency official." It's unclear how much overlap there is in that orgy of pro-Cheney anonymity, but there is not a single on-the-record source to corroborate the Torture-Saved-Us-From-Mass-Death narrative, nor is there even a shred of information about the motives or views of these "officials."

    2. The Washington Post has already told us the Inspector Generals' report provides no evidence torture helped.

    GG What makes the Post's breathless vindication of torture all the more journalistically corrupt is that the document on which it principally bases these claims -- the just-released 2004 CIA Inspector General Report -- provides no support whatsoever for the view that torture produced valuable intelligence, despite the fact that it was based on the claims of CIA officials themselves. Ironically, nobody has done a better job this week of demonstrating how true that is than the Post's own Greg Sargent -- who, in post after post this week -- dissected the IG Report to demonstrate that it provides no evidence for Cheney's claims that torture helped obtain valuable intelligence.

    3. Three of four other papers of record covered the same Inspectors report and concluded clearly it did not say that torture helped at all.

    That the released documents provide no support for Cheney's claims was so patently clear that many news articles contained unusually definitive statements reporting that to be so. The New York Times reported that the documents Cheney claimed proved his case "do not refer to any specific interrogation methods and do not assess their effectiveness." ABC News noted that "the visible portions of the heavily redacted reports do not indicate whether such information was obtained as a result of controversial interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding." TPM's Zachary Roth documented that "nowhere do they suggest that that information was gleaned through torture," while The Washington Independent's Spencer Ackerman detailed that, if anything, the documents prove "that non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important information the documents cite in defending the value of the CIAís interrogations." As Sargent reported, even Bush's loyal Terrorism adviser, Frances Fargos Townsend, admitted that the IG Report provides no basis for what the Post today is ludicrously implying:
    Last edited by dragondad; 09-02-09 at 11:13 AM.

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    4. Quoting Bush's own terrorism advisor at the time, Francis Townsend has said the IG report does not say tortue helped.

    ""Itís very difficult to draw a cause and effect, because itís not clear when techniques were applied vs. when that information was received. Itís implicit. It seems, when you read the report, that we got the ó the ó the most critical information after techniques had been applied. But the report doesnít say that.""

    5. Quoting actual journalist Jane Meyers who read the report.

    Well, the documents that I've seen, and maybe I'm missing something, but so far, I am amazed at how little support there is for the things that Vice President Cheney has been saying. There is nothing but a mass of claims that they got information from this individual and that individual, many from KSM, who apparently has been the greatest fount of information for them, but there's absolutely nothing saying that they had to beat them to get this information. In fact, as anybody knows who knows anything about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he was dying to tell the world, when he was interviewed by Al Jazeera before he was in US custody, about everything he knew and everything he did. He was proud of his role as the mastermind of 9/11. He loves to talk about it. So there's no evidence that I see in this that these things were necessary. I spoke to someone at the CIA who was an adviser to them who conceded to me that "We could have gotten the same information from tea and crumpets."
    Last edited by dragondad; 09-02-09 at 11:23 AM.

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    those are very nice arguments, fellas, but the fact you have to make em kinda proves CARVILLE's point

    devastating politics for the white house

    america doesn't have time to read your rationalizations

    america doesn't care to

    america never heard of glen greenblatt

    america knows The Post

    the fact that you gotta attack its breathless corruption (LOL!) kinda tells once more

    and ksm is FAMOUS

    the story's out---ksm turned into a TUTOR

    it's spelled P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S

    obama/holder CHOSE the issue

    70 ops were discovered

    argue on, angels and pins

    with every legalistic, perfectly spelled word of yours, the president shrinks

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    those are very nice arguments, fellas, but the fact you have to make em kinda proves CARVILLE's point

    devastating politics for the white house

    america doesn't have time to read your rationalizations

    america doesn't care to

    america never heard of glen greenblatt

    america knows The Post

    the fact that you gotta attack its breathless corruption (LOL!) kinda tells once more

    and ksm is FAMOUS

    the story's out---ksm turned into a TUTOR

    it's spelled P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S

    obama/holder CHOSE the issue

    70 ops were discovered

    argue on, angels and pins

    with every legalistic, perfectly spelled word of yours, the president shrinks
    What grade are you in?

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    Re: How a Detainee Became an Assett

    nice comeback, dragondad

    the post story about ksm flipping after eit's is a huge political loser for the white house

    on the biggest issue of the week

    selected specifically by the admin itself

    pretty stupid

    sorry

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