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Thread: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

  1. #91
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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    WAFJYA - I forgot more about insurance in an afternoon than you will obviously ever know. I won't even bother to tell you what my credentials are in the insurance industry becasue I seriously doubt that you would comprehend them.
    I didn't see anything in TD's post that was incorrect. Since you're such the expert, I'll call your bluff. Let's hear those credentials...
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    The only point I am trying to make is that things COULD be worse, and while this program COULD be a bad idea, there is no way to know that for sure, so while I support your right to disagree with it, I don't agree with your blatantly saying it won't work with no way of knowing.

    Pure speculation with zero data to support it.

    You are absolutely right...this is speculation, and I haven't argued that...I have pointed out your arrogance in doing so.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    American companies generating BILLIONS in revenue move to off shore operations in the Caymans to get around paying taxes, while foolishly spending both shareholder and now taxpayer money on executive perks.

    Pure hyperbole with zero data to support it.


    Is the top 25 companies good enough? Citizen Works - 25 Fortune 500 Corporations With the Most Offshore Tax-Haven Subsidiaries


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    The problem that I have is the very obvious class warfare that is happening, where the rich get richer, and the poor continuously get poorer. Corporations are given too much power and as you know "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

    False statement with zero data to support it.

    Difference in private and public sector...

    Benefits widen public, private workers' pay gap - USATODAY.com

    Ratio between executive and worker pay...CEO pay: Redefining sky-high - Aug. 30, 2005


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    but as it stands right now, corporate greed DOES stand in the way of all those goals and instead perpetually just benefits the people at the top, because it's too easy for them not too.

    False hyperbolic statement with zero data to support it.

    Have given examples of many companies and multiple executives, and if necessary would happily give more, although I'm sure I would just be accused of being hyperbolic...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    For example. From 2002 Halliburton paid 0 dollars in federal taxes for four of five years?
    A claim that requires support; speculative at best that any company claiming profits paid zero dollars in taxes. But it is your claim, I challenge you to support it.

    After further research I am not able to back this up, and withdraw my previous statement (I can admit when I am wrong)


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    Dennis Kozlowski, disgraced CEO of Tyco International, paid himself 300 million a year (which by the way, he'd incorporated in Bermuda to avoid paying pesky U.S. taxes)

    I am not sure there are any facts to support this claim.
    The fact that he was convicted isn't enough?? [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kozlowski]Dennis Kozlowski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    while his company tanked losing shareholders 80 BILLION in just his last year in control. His shareholders were also billed for a 30 million dollar, fifteen thousand square foot estate in Boca Raton, an almost 17 million dollar home on fifth avenue (plus approximately 15 million in renovations) and even a home in New York for his EX, i repeat EX wife.

    This one is begging for a point.

    I think my point is quite clear...In demonstrating the atrocious spending habits on the shareholders dime, I have shown a clear example of corporate and executive greed. It's actually a fairly clear point.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    This is just one of MANY examples of how executive power has become just too great, and how greedy and huge corporations have become. This was the reason anti-trust legislation was created in the first place, although now, altogether ignored, for all intents and purposes.

    False arguments while selectively singling out two companies to make a broad false generalization of all corporations.


    Am I saying EVERY corporation is guilty of these charges? Yes, I chose two companies because I didn't feel it necessary to waste everyone's time with more examples of clearly present greed. But please, tell me how many addition examples you would like?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    You are absolutely right, you can support this OPINION and more power to you. We are supporting our opinion. I at least have the ability to say I may be wrong, you are just arrogant in your absolute certainty that you are correct.

    This comment is comedic; I am trying to see where there is anything for me to admit I am wrong about.

    My argument is nothing but factual; $1.6 trillion deficit and over 6,000,000 jobs lost. Obama's program based on the last 180 days has been an abject failure and we continue to shed hundreds of thousands of jobs every month.


    You continuously miss the point. At no point have I said that you are wrong, only that it is arrogant to be so certain about something without absolute certainty. I never asked you to admit that you are wrong.


    Your move...

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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    WAFJYA - I forgot more about insurance in an afternoon than you will obviously ever know. I won't even bother to tell you what my credentials are in the insurance industry becasue I seriously doubt that you would comprehend them. You also show a total lack of humor.

    Why don't you try to dispute the opinion that I wrote with either your own or with some facts if you can find any instead of resorting to childish personal attacks such as attempting with feable and futile means to dimish what I wrote.
    Correction; YOU THINK you know more about insurance in an afternoon, but you type like someone who wanders around the forum blathering your typical uninformed nonsense.

    Carry on; I look forward to seeing you actually type something credible with even a slight level of intellectual honesty.

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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Let's square several things away here.

    First, I have absolutely NO problem with healthcare reform, zip, zero, nada. The system as it exists is far from ideal, BUT the proposed changes are NOT the way to fix things.

    Second, why bring the former administration in to this? CARS was not their program, neither is the current attempt for healthcare reform. I'll clue you in, I disagreed just as much with many of Bush's policies as I do with the current administration. No Bush worship here.

    Regardless of WHO created the mess, the current government is not even close to taking steps to correct ANYTHING.


    ...and yes, I have a job.

    Now excuse me while I go wash that "truth" off that you shed on me.
    -
    What do you expect to happen in the few months Obama has been in office?
    -
    The proposed changes are not the way to fix things?
    Ya, we'll believe YOU over our Gov. findings!
    -
    Do you really have a Job?
    -
    BTW: If you haven't washed up since Bush was in office then yes I agree that you should go wash up!
    Mommy I am only 10 years old and I was surprised to kick the ass of that Pussy. Son that Pussy didn't listen to S.S.1

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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Stinger1 View Post
    The proposed changes are not the way to fix things?
    Ya, we'll believe YOU over our Gov. findings!
    I find this statement from Libruls who told everyone that Government was NOT to be trusted when Bush was in charge. Yet now with their dude in charge, Government is suddenly to be trusted.

    The gullibility and lemming like willingness to suspend disbelief it takes to be a Librul is stunning to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Stinger1 View Post
    BTW: If you haven't washed up since Bush was in office then yes I agree that you should go wash up!
    What irony considering your previous comments. By the way, it is highly unlikely you will ever be able to wash the stench away left by this Administration when they are done screwing the American people royally.

    It will take at least a generation, perhaps two, to pay for the debt and deficits the current cabal of morons who are currently running our Government are running up.

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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I find this statement from Libruls who told everyone that Government was NOT to be trusted when Bush was in charge. Yet now with their dude in charge, Government is suddenly to be trusted.
    WELL every one in the WORLD now knows that bushieVoyIdiotLoser cannot be trusted so when will you get around to finding that out?
    -

    The gullibility and lemming like willingness to suspend disbelief it takes to be a Librul is stunning to say the least.
    Duuuu, hey, yo, yo yo, I voted for McCain!!!
    -



    What irony considering your previous comments. By the way, it is highly unlikely you will ever be able to wash the stench away left by this Administration when they are done screwing the American people royally.
    ONCE AGAIN YO YO, I voted for McCain.

    It will take at least a generation, perhaps two, to pay for the debt and deficits the current cabal of morons who are currently running our Government are running up.
    The only MORONS are the ones that voted for bushieBoyLowlifeAmericanTroopHatter the second time.
    -
    BTW: The TRILLIONS bush spent in Iraq while Osama was rebuilding and is now killing American Troops more so now than when we first went into Afgain is OK???
    AND the TRILLIONS he handed to HALLIBURTON with NO BID CONTRACTS is OK by U???
    Mommy I am only 10 years old and I was surprised to kick the ass of that Pussy. Son that Pussy didn't listen to S.S.1

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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    My argument is nothing but factual; $1.6 trillion deficit and over 6,000,000 jobs lost. Obama's program based on the last 180 days has been an abject failure and we continue to shed hundreds of thousands of jobs every month.
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    FACTS:

    Deficit is estimated to be $1.6 trillion this year and over $11 trillion in the next decade.

    Jobs shed since December 2008: 4.5 Million

    Unemployment rate in December 2008: 7.1%

    Unemployment rate July 2009: 9.7%

    Notice: Data not available: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

    GDP: Down 6.4%
    News Release: Gross Domestic Product

    I am sorry; I don't see how anyone can argue that Cash for Clunkers has done ANYTHING to make this dire economic situation better.
    Your entire premise; that cash for clunkers has done nothing to make the economic situation better and therefore the program has failed, is based on a non-Sequitur.

    It affirms the consequent.

    If the economy has gotten worse, then cash for clunkers has failed.

    Cash for clunkers has failed.

    Therefore the economy has gotten worse.

    You can prove that the economy has gotten worse, but it would still be fallacious to think this has been caused by a failure of the cash for clunkers program. Many other factors could cause the economy to worsen other than the cash for clunkers program failing, such as overproduction, underproduction, financial crisis, etc.

    It is also based on division. The economy is in decline; therefore cash for clunkers related industry is declining. You could fix this fallacy by actually posting some information about the auto industry, which is much more related to cash for clunkers, instead of the entire economy. Until you do however, you have proven nothing about any failures of cash for clunkers. All your facts have proven to me are failures of the economy as a whole.


    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    As a matter of fact, I am at a loss how anyone can think this will do anything when this program amounts to taking money from one group and giving it to another group (still unidentified so we are printing/borrowing to pay for it)
    This is an un-supported conclusion. Yes, you have identified the program does take government money and grant it to car dealerships. Why does this mean the program will do nothing for the economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    I don't know how anyone can argue that “cash for clunkers” allowed us to lose "fewer" jobs or that it is a good thing when the number of jobs lost every single month is in the hundreds of thousands. I find that argument stunning.
    You have committed the same fallacy; division, and affirming the consequent. Your argument so far is stunning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    What do you think happens now that the program has ended? Do you honestly think that consumers will continue buying cars? REALLY?
    From this statement: “Do you honestly think that consumers will continue buying cars?” I’m guessing you are saying cash for clunkers has allowed people to buy cars, hence the word “continue” in your question. It is hard telling since you are arguing by question though.

    If this is the case you are committing a fallacy here:

    If cash for clunkers is running, then people will buy cars.

    Cash for clunkers is not running.

    Therefore People will not buy cars.

    This is denying the antecedent. Although cash for clunkers is over, people will continue to buy cars for other reasons such as an old one breaking down, they like a new car, their old car is not fuel efficient, a new driver needs a new car, etc. You are ignoring other common causes for people to buy cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    Increased production is meaningless when unemployment keeps skyrocketing, consumers keep hording money and GDP is in the negative 6.4% range.
    This is irrelevant considering cash for clunkers did nothing to increase production. Cash for clunkers focused on increasing demand for cars by offering incentives to buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    I am stunned that you are still desperately arguing that programs like this are helping. Tell me something; who do you think is going to pay for the billions being doled out to people to buy cars; where do you think this money, will come from.
    I think it is going to come from the U.S. federal government. How does this cause cash for clunkers to fail at stimulating the economy? You have made another unsupported remark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    Here's another more pertinent question you and others desperately defending the rabid stupidity of this administration need to answer; who do you think is going to pay for this $10 to $11 trillion deficit and what will be the economic impact?


    If you think that YOU and every single American in this country will be unaffected and that it will not have a profound impact on the future economic health of this nation, then you are wallowing in an amazing level willful denial.
    It is a $10 to $11 trillion debt, not deficit. This is unimportant to the overall point of your question, but it is often confused. I think the U.S. government will pay for its debt.

    You fail to state your position. You are too busy bashing others and arguing through question to realize you have not stated whether or not this profound impact on the economic health of this nation would be positive or negative. I will guess you believe it will be negative.

    How does this cause cash for clunkers to fail at stimulating the economy? You are trying to argue through division once again. Cash for clunkers has added to the overall debt, but does not represent the whole debt. Cash for clunkers could still stimulate the economy while adding onto the debt.



    To recap all you have proven to me is the economy is in a downturn and this program (cash for clunkers) amounts to taking money from one group and giving it to another group.

    I happen to think cash for clunkers was effective at increasing demand for cars, selling cars, and stimulating the auto industry during this recession. The article supports my opinion saying:

    “Auto makers will release their monthly sales reports Tuesday and they're expected to show the first year-to-year increase since 2007.

    During the month long program, Billion Automotive sold close to a thousand vehicles…”
    The article does say cash for clunkers has been slow to pay for some sold cars. This is a downside to the program that I will not deny, but it does not mean the program has been a failure. Especially when at the end of the article it said, “…Billion thinks he'll get his money eventually, it just may take longer than what the government first said.”

  8. #98
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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe1991 View Post
    Yes. the program was so successful that they have to triple the number of people working on the claims. It cleared out dealers inventories and put people back to work.
    Yeah so successful Edmunds figured it cost $24,000 extra per car sold. Only 125,000 extra cars were sold. Wow, let's all marvel at the boost in sales.

    Did "Cash for Clunkers" Cost Taxpayers $24,000 Per Car Sold?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Your entire premise; that cash for clunkers has done nothing to make the economic situation better and therefore the program has failed, is based on a non-Sequitur.

    It affirms the consequent.

    If the economy has gotten worse, then cash for clunkers has failed.

    Cash for clunkers has failed.

    Therefore the economy has gotten worse.

    You can prove that the economy has gotten worse, but it would still be fallacious to think this has been caused by a failure of the cash for clunkers program. Many other factors could cause the economy to worsen other than the cash for clunkers program failing, such as overproduction, underproduction, financial crisis, etc.

    It is also based on division. The economy is in decline; therefore cash for clunkers related industry is declining. You could fix this fallacy by actually posting some information about the auto industry, which is much more related to cash for clunkers, instead of the entire economy. Until you do however, you have proven nothing about any failures of cash for clunkers. All your facts have proven to me are failures of the economy as a whole.

    This is an un-supported conclusion. Yes, you have identified the program does take government money and grant it to car dealerships. Why does this mean the program will do nothing for the economy?

    You have committed the same fallacy; division, and affirming the consequent. Your argument so far is stunning.

    From this statement: “Do you honestly think that consumers will continue buying cars?” I’m guessing you are saying cash for clunkers has allowed people to buy cars, hence the word “continue” in your question. It is hard telling since you are arguing by question though.

    If this is the case you are committing a fallacy here:

    If cash for clunkers is running, then people will buy cars.

    Cash for clunkers is not running.

    Therefore People will not buy cars.

    This is denying the antecedent. Although cash for clunkers is over, people will continue to buy cars for other reasons such as an old one breaking down, they like a new car, their old car is not fuel efficient, a new driver needs a new car, etc. You are ignoring other common causes for people to buy cars.

    This is irrelevant considering cash for clunkers did nothing to increase production. Cash for clunkers focused on increasing demand for cars by offering incentives to buy.

    I think it is going to come from the U.S. federal government. How does this cause cash for clunkers to fail at stimulating the economy? You have made another unsupported remark.

    It is a $10 to $11 trillion debt, not deficit. This is unimportant to the overall point of your question, but it is often confused. I think the U.S. government will pay for its debt.

    You fail to state your position. You are too busy bashing others and arguing through question to realize you have not stated whether or not this profound impact on the economic health of this nation would be positive or negative. I will guess you believe it will be negative.

    How does this cause cash for clunkers to fail at stimulating the economy? You are trying to argue through division once again. Cash for clunkers has added to the overall debt, but does not represent the whole debt. Cash for clunkers could still stimulate the economy while adding onto the debt.



    To recap all you have proven to me is the economy is in a downturn and this program (cash for clunkers) amounts to taking money from one group and giving it to another group.

    I happen to think cash for clunkers was effective at increasing demand for cars, selling cars, and stimulating the auto industry during this recession. The article supports my opinion saying:

    The article does say cash for clunkers has been slow to pay for some sold cars. This is a downside to the program that I will not deny, but it does not mean the program has been a failure. Especially when at the end of the article it said, “…Billion thinks he'll get his money eventually, it just may take longer than what the government first said.”
    After suffering through this long winded diatribe which basically says NOTHING; it is begging for a point. What is your point?

    Is it in support of the Government stealing money from hard working taxpayers and giving it to specific groups for purely partisan political purposes is a good thing?

    Is it supporting a Government that has spent us into a $1.6 trillion dollar hole as a good thing?

    Is it suggesting that watching the National Debt continue to climb at the rate of $1 million a day is a good thing?

    What is your point dude? Perhaps it is just an effort to prove you don't know what the hell you are talking about like Golden Boy and think that borrowing and printing money the Government doesn't have is a good thing?

    It once again raises the question; if after another two years of this stupidity there are no improvements in the economic malaise we are in, will you then acknowledge that Obama is a moron who is destroying the country and you were a fool for buying into this rabid stupidity?

    Carry on.

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    Re: Dealers Still Waiting For 'Clunker' Cash...

    And....we should all realize cfc was nothing but a rebate...manufacturers have been doing this for years and for the same reason...a temporary boost in sales that either lighten current inventories or market a target vehicle or both.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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