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Thread: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

  1. #131
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    Re: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    The CIA Factbook moderates infant mortality rates in the way that you suggest. If you'd like to see how life expectnacy figures look after this, it's a good source.
    So, post the relevant data. I would like to see if they did really factor in diverse populations and reporting factors from different countries. and am genuinely curious about the outcomes.

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    Re: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

    The notion that the nations which have a Universal Healthcare systems are not in the red, have double the tax rates from us in the US and do not have LONGER waiting lists for care that you can get tomorrow in the US, is the desperate rhetoric of those who wallow in self inflicted denial.

    Germany, France, Canada and GB are in a desperate debate about how to reign in the vast costs of running their healthcare systems which thanks to Government regulations and mandated cuts require long waiting times for things as basic as acid reflux.

    Where are the statistics that show the number of deaths caused as a result of waiting to find a specialist for critical operations of which there is a tremendous shortage in those nations and the reason many who rich enough to afford can bypass their own nations systems and come to the US to get the necessary care. But those statistics are hard to find because the nations who have UHC bury them or ignore the data.

    I had a recent debate with a Canadian friend that sums up the mentality of those who have NEVER known any other system other than Government run systems; I asked her if she was okay with the long wait times for things as mundane as acid reflux. Her response was basically that she had NO problem waiting for something as mundane as acid reflux if someone else had a higher need. My response was; WHY SHOULD ANYONE HAVE TO WAIT?

    That is the exact point. It is a point of view of the citizens of nations who have never known any other system where they view waiting as just a fact of life. Here in the USA, we don’t have a concept of what it means to wait for something as mundane as acid reflux, let alone the critical importance of heart bypass surgery.

    In those nations I mentioned above, wait times for heart bypass surgery can run from three months to three years. Many have died just waiting for a doctor who can perform those operations.

    In the USA, they wouldn't have released you from the hospital if you came in with that condition. Why would ANYONE want what Canadians, Great Britons, the French and Germans have?

    What a vast lie from this administration to suggest that the COSTS associated with such a program will be a mere $1 trillion and that most of that cost will be covered by fixing inefficiencies. It is a vast LIE that the Government can do ANYTHING better than the private sector and for LESS cost. There is not one shred of credible evidence that anything Obama claims will ever be a reality.

    In Canada, a nation awash with oil and a net exporter, gas is twice that of their biggest importer the good old USA. Their individual tax rates are higher than those in the USA. The taxes on goods are higher than those in the USA and many drive across the border for the cheaper prices on clothes and other products even after they pay the duties to get the goods back into their own nation. Even with all those additional taxes, the Canadian Healthcare system is in BIG trouble; as are those in GB, France and Germany. Pretending that they are not is dishonest and without that debate, any efforts by Europeans and Canadians to argue their systems are better is laughable.

    The notion that you are not going to have to pay a much higher cost for Obama’s healthcare plan requires more than willful denial, but willful ignorance. The notion that we ALL are not going to be paying a substantial price for the Obama Stimulus plan requires similar willful ignorance. The notion that Obama’s plans are not killing the American economy requires a stunning level willful ignorance.

  3. #133
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    Re: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Funny enough that is exactly what most people say about the US medical system too!
    No one, I mean no one is saying that the U.S. system is not sustainable. They say that it's terrible, it needs change, it exploits people, etc., but seeing as how it's been sustained for hundreds of years, I don't think anyone is dumb enough to think that it can't be kept up.

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    Re: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    No one, I mean no one is saying that the U.S. system is not sustainable. They say that it's terrible, it needs change, it exploits people, etc., but seeing as how it's been sustained for hundreds of years, I don't think anyone is dumb enough to think that it can't be kept up.
    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04793sp.pdf

    Seems the GAO under Bush disagrees...
    PeteEU

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    Re: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    So?
    FOI Act information can be manipulated. DM always has a agenda.
    It has this trip.

    As i said, bring me a reputable source something not a tabloid trash.
    I'll even accept Torygraph.
    Is there a single post of yours that Middleground doesn't thanks, sheesh. FOIA info can be manipulated, how lame is that? What can't be manipulated then. I guess there is no truth then right? UK communist medicine sucks, and we're seeing it in articles everyday.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04793sp.pdf

    Seems the GAO under Bush disagrees...
    OOHHHHHYHHHHHHHH IT'S BUSH'S FAULT. OF COURSE, THE OLD RELIABLE. Yes that's the answer.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  7. #137
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    Re: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The notion that the nations which have a Universal Healthcare systems are not in the red, have double the tax rates from us in the US and do not have LONGER waiting lists for care that you can get tomorrow in the US, is the desperate rhetoric of those who wallow in self inflicted denial.
    Interesting post.

    However, while these countries you mention do have higher tax rates and waiting lists their economies are doing quite well and their waiting lists are minimal. The german system, which uses private health corps to provide healthcare, is an exemplary system.

    Germany, France, Canada and GB are in a desperate debate about how to reign in the vast costs of running their healthcare systems which thanks to Government regulations and mandated cuts require long waiting times for things as basic as acid reflux.
    They are in fact not in desperate debate, though the do wish to reign in costs. there isnt a nation in the world that doesnt, including the USA.

    Where are the statistics that show the number of deaths caused as a result of waiting to find a specialist for critical operations of which there is a tremendous shortage in those nations and the reason many who rich enough to afford can bypass their own nations systems and come to the US to get the necessary care. But those statistics are hard to find because the nations who have UHC bury them or ignore the data.
    Really? How curious. Perhaps they just don't exist.


    I had a recent debate with a Canadian friend that sums up the mentality of those who have NEVER known any other system other than Government run systems; I asked her if she was okay with the long wait times for things as mundane as acid reflux. Her response was basically that she had NO problem waiting for something as mundane as acid reflux if someone else had a higher need. My response was; WHY SHOULD ANYONE HAVE TO WAIT?
    If you order a new custom made sofa, do you expect to receive it the next day?

    Wait times exist in the US also. Its just that they depend on ability to pay rather than need.

    That is the exact point. It is a point of view of the citizens of nations who have never known any other system where they view waiting as just a fact of life. Here in the USA, we don’t have a concept of what it means to wait for something as mundane as acid reflux, let alone the critical importance of heart bypass surgery.
    Of course you do, the under-insured or the un-insured endure much worse conditions such as receiving sub-standard emergency room care, battling with insurance companies or enduring large debts post treatment.



    In those nations I mentioned above, wait times for heart bypass surgery can run from three months to three years. Many have died just waiting for a doctor who can perform those operations.
    Waiting lists in other industrialized countries are almost always for elective surgeries and procedures – no country has a waiting list for emergency procedures, and virtually no country has waiting lists for primary care visits.

    In the USA, they wouldn't have released you from the hospital if you came in with that condition. Why would ANYONE want what Canadians, Great Britons, the French and Germans have?
    Yet every country has what they have or wants it.

    What a vast lie from this administration to suggest that the COSTS associated with such a program will be a mere $1 trillion and that most of that cost will be covered by fixing inefficiencies. It is a vast LIE that the Government can do ANYTHING better than the private sector and for LESS cost. There is not one shred of credible evidence that anything Obama claims will ever be a reality.
    Why are you telling us 'It is a vast LIE that the Government can do ANYTHING better than the private sector and for LESS cost.'? The gov never claimed it and in some cases the government is the best provider for some services.


    In Canada, a nation awash with oil and a net exporter, gas is twice that of their biggest importer the good old USA. Their individual tax rates are higher than those in the USA. The taxes on goods are higher than those in the USA and many drive across the border for the cheaper prices on clothes and other products even after they pay the duties to get the goods back into their own nation. Even with all those additional taxes, the Canadian Healthcare system is in BIG trouble; as are those in GB, France and Germany. Pretending that they are not is dishonest and without that debate, any efforts by Europeans and Canadians to argue their systems are better is laughable.
    None of the above is actually true. Canada is doing fine, as are the other countries.

    The notion that you are not going to have to pay a much higher cost for Obama’s healthcare plan requires more than willful denial, but willful ignorance. The notion that we ALL are not going to be paying a substantial price for the Obama Stimulus plan requires similar willful ignorance. The notion that Obama’s plans are not killing the American economy requires a stunning level willful ignorance.
    Id be interested to see how Americans could end up paying even more than they do now when they already pay more than the rest of the world. Im sure that Americans are more than capable of matching the efficiencies and achievements of the other modern nations.

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    Re: UK Health Care: Babies Born in Corridors

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    OOHHHHHYHHHHHHHH IT'S BUSH'S FAULT. OF COURSE, THE OLD RELIABLE. Yes that's the answer.
    What is Bush's fault?

    I doubt Pate EU was arguing whatever is Bush's fault. He's simply pointing to a government body working during the Bush presidency.

    Im sure you know this. So why the extreme reaction?

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