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Thread: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Except you didn't just say that more prisoners died in general prison than on death row, which is obvious. You said:



    This is patently false.
    Obviously, it's not false.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Obviously, it's not false.
    Perhaps you should learn what "more likely" means before you make such ridiculous claims; English must not be your first language. At any rate, whatever point you were attempting to make is completely irrelevant to the thread.
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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Perhaps you should learn what "more likely" means before you make such ridiculous claims; English must not be your first language. At any rate, whatever point you were attempting to make is completely irrelevant to the thread.
    Perhaps you should cut the cry baby **** and produce more docs and fewer personal attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Perhaps you should cut the cry baby **** and produce more docs and fewer personal attacks.
    More docs for WHAT? For Christ's sake. Learn how to formulate an argument if you expect a response from now on.
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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This of course assumes that you place no value on the lives that are saved via deterrence resulting from the death penalty.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/18deter.html?_r=1
    Did you read the article? Even the title says "it's a debate."

    Although there might be interesting findings in the "deterrence" aspect, there is nothing concrete supporting your point. Not even close. In fact, I'm left with the same feeling I have had about the death penalty as before.

    The studies have been the subject of sharp criticism, much of it from legal scholars who say that the theories of economists do not apply to the violent world of crime and punishment. Critics of the studies say they are based on faulty premises, insufficient data and flawed methodologies.
    and

    Critics say the larger factors are impossible to disentangle from whatever effects executions may have. They add that the new studies’ conclusions are skewed by data from a few anomalous jurisdictions, notably Texas, and by a failure to distinguish among various kinds of homicide.

    There is also a classic economics question lurking in the background, Professor Wolfers said. “Capital punishment is very expensive,” he said, “so if you choose to spend money on capital punishment you are choosing not to spend it somewhere else, like policing.”
    A few things are perfectly clear, though:

    a) Innocents have died in the hands of the state.
    b) Execution is far more expense than a life sentence.
    Last edited by Middleground; 08-27-09 at 07:35 PM.
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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    More docs for WHAT? For Christ's sake. Learn how to formulate an argument if you expect a response from now on.
    And, if you going to say that I'm wrong, you need to be just as able to support your claims. Just saying I'm wrong and insulting me, just isn't enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Except you didn't just say that more prisoners died in general prison than on death row, which is obvious. You said:

    This is patently false.
    I think what he's trying to claim is that the odds of a person being killed while part of the general population are higher than the odds of being executed while on death row. I think he may actually be right on this one, as I've heard it many times before and know that the vast majority of people on death row are there for quite a long time.

    Don't know what he thinks it proves, but there you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Did you read the article? Even the title says "it's a debate."

    Although there might be interesting findings in the "deterrence" aspect, there is nothing concrete supporting your point. Not even close. In fact, I'm left with the same feeling I have had about the death penalty as before.
    There's a debate, but as the article notes, According to roughly a dozen recent studies, executions save lives. When a dozen independent studies all come to the same conclusion, I consider that pretty strong evidence in favor of something.

    a) Innocents have died in the hands of the state.
    b) Execution is far more expense than a life sentence.
    The people dying in the excess murders that occur due to a lack of deterrence are also innocents. And while you're right that it costs more to execute someone than to sentence them to life in prison, you're essentially putting a dollar value on an innocent person's life.

    I understand that there are innocent people who are executed, but we need to put this in perspective. For every innocent person who is executed, there are 100 innocent people serving life sentences who will die in jail and 1000 innocent people serving other terms of incarceration who will never be exonerated.

    All that being said, I myself would support some restrictions on the death penalty's use, such as only employing it in cases where there was incontrovertible evidence or an admissible confession, so as to reduce the risk of innocent people being executed.
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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But, at the same time, there's a big difference between reading a report and looking at the actual fire scene.
    There should not be much difference if the report was filled out properly.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I think what he's trying to claim is that the odds of a person being killed while part of the general population are higher than the odds of being executed while on death row. I think he may actually be right on this one, as I've heard it many times before and know that the vast majority of people on death row are there for quite a long time.
    The odds of a death row prisoner dying are 100%, unless they are found to be innocent or somehow escape. The odds of someone in the general prison population dying in prison are considerably less than 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    There's a debate, but as the article notes, According to roughly a dozen recent studies, executions save lives. When a dozen independent studies all come to the same conclusion, I consider that pretty strong evidence in favor of something.
    This ignores the opportunity cost of spending all that extra taxpayer money on death row appeals instead of on more police.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    All that being said, I myself would support some restrictions on the death penalty's use, such as only employing it in cases where there was incontrovertible evidence or an admissible confession, so as to reduce the risk of innocent people being executed.
    What do you mean by "incontrovertible evidence"? Courts already have found defendants guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...and sometimes they're wrong.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 08-28-09 at 02:12 AM.
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    Re: Expert says fire for which man was executed was not arson

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The odds of a death row prisoner dying are 100%, unless they are found to be innocent or somehow escape. The odds of someone in the general prison population dying in prison are considerably less than 100%.
    Again, I think the comparison is supposed to be between the odds of being executed on death row and being killed in prison.

    There are 3,263 people on death row in the US. There were 37 people executed in 2008, which means that the odds of being executed on death row are [some number calculation/year/person/whatever]. Supposedly, that number is lower than [number of people in prison/number of people killed in prison/year/person/whatever].

    That's what I think the originator of that statement was going for.

    This ignores the opportunity cost of spending all that extra taxpayer money on death row appeals instead of on more police.
    I don't think you can count that cost like that, as you could say the same about the opportunity cost of spending that extra money on catching/incarcerating the additional murderers who otherwise would have been deterred from committing murder. Further, I doubt that a dozen studies all missed that relatively simple variable.

    What do you mean by "incontrovertible evidence"? Courts already have found defendants guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...and sometimes they're wrong.
    I mean incontrovertible evidence as in 10 eyewitnesses to a guy who walked into a church and shot 5 people before being tackled and arrested. Situations where there is no argument for "you got the wrong guy."

    In those cases, I think the probability of getting it wrong is essentially nil.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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