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Thread: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

  1. #121
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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    really? they don't believe one has to be "saved"?

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    jews? .......

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    people you do realise according to christianity anyone not Christian is going to hell right?
    Actually, in general its Christian doctrine that if you are not Christian yet have also not been informed that Christ died for your sins, then you will still go to heaven - basically that God does not judge you simply on your ignorance. However, if you are not Christian yet have been told that Christ died for your sins, and thus have rejected Christ as your personal redeemer than you will go to Hell.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    really? they don't believe one has to be "saved"?



    Read what I wrote..... then try again my friend.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    well, let me say that many baptist churches DO NOT believe catholics will go to heaven. maybe not all, but certainly some.


    The Ecumenical Movement


    We believe that the Ecumenical Movement is Satan’s attempt to bring the world’s religions together in preparation for the Antichrist and his Great Roman Catholic Whore. We believe that Rock-n-Roll music is being used to break down the barriers of separation and expedite this process of Great Apostasy and religious amalgamation.

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    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    General Basic Christian Doctrine 101:

    1. The fall of man occurred in a primordial event.

    2. Man is thus fallen and is incapable of redeeming himself (this makes Christianity incompatible with Buddhism for example).

    3. The son of God, Christ, suffered and died on the cross for the sins of man. Thus Christ is man's redeemer.

    4. All man must do to be redeemed is repent for their sins and accept Christ as their personal redeemer.

    Regardless of whether you are Baptist, Catholic, Mainline Protestant, or Anglican, that is the basic summation of Christian views toward salvation.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Agna:

    Tinker was about EXPLICITLY political speech. The schools have a right to prohibit disruptive messages, and that right has been upheld repeatedly.

    firstamendmentcenter.org: analysis
    That isn't a rebuttal to my comment, and there's actually a far higher standard for determination of expression as "disruptive" than you would seem to imply. Morse v. Frederick, for example, could have easily been resolved in Joseph Frederick's favor by a 6 to 3 ruling if he had claimed that there was some tangible meaning to the phrase "Bong Hits 4 Jesus," despite its clearly "disruptive" nature.

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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    General Basic Christian Doctrine 101:

    1. The fall of man occurred in a primordial event.

    2. Man is thus fallen and is incapable of redeeming himself (this makes Christianity incompatible with Buddhism for example).
    This is incorrect. Man is capable of redeeming himself, not only is salvation by works somewhat important in Catholicism but man is capable of coming to Jesus.

    3. The son of God, Christ, suffered and died on the cross for the sins of man. Thus Christ is man's redeemer.

    4. All man must do to be redeemed is repent for their sins and accept Christ as their personal redeemer.

    Regardless of whether you are Baptist, Catholic, Mainline Protestant, or Anglican, that is the basic summation of Christian views toward salvation.
    Actually there is a difference between the views of the Orthodox and Catholic(of whatever kind.) on the one side and the Protestants on the other. As R.H Tawney put it:

    The difference between loving men as a result of first loving God, and learning to love God through a growing love for men, may not, at first sight, appear profound.
    To Luther it seemed an abyss, and Luther was right. It was, in a sense, nothing less than the Reformation itself. For carried, as it was not carried by Luther, to its logical result, the argument made, not only good works, but sacraments and the Church itself unnecessary.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 08-28-09 at 08:51 PM.
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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This is incorrect. Man is capable of redeeming himself, not only is salvation by works somewhat important in Catholicism but man is capable of coming to Jesus.

    Actually there is a difference between the views of the Orthodox and Catholic(of whatever kind.) on the one side and the Protestants on the other. As R.H Tawney put it:

    The difference between loving men as a result of first loving God, and learning to love God through a growing love for men, may not, at first sight, appear profound.
    To Luther it seemed an abyss, and Luther was right. It was, in a sense, nothing less than the Reformation itself. For carried, as it was not carried by Luther, to its logical result, the argument made, not only good works, but sacraments and the Church itself unnecessary.
    Ok, not to turn this into a theological argument, but there is nothing incorrect about what I said, it was nothing but "Mere Christianity" as C.S. Lewis would put it.

    Yes, Catholics recognize works, but they see works as a product of salvation. Not as something one earns it with.

    It is core to Christianity regardless of the denomination that man cannot redeem himself. If man could redeem himself, then there would have been no reason for Christ to suffer and die on the cross for the sins of man.

    The differences in denominations, even between Catholics and Protestants are largely nuanced. For example, some denominations recognize sacraments as means of conveying grace, others see them as simply symbolic. Some believe once saved always saved, others believe that man can turn from God after accepting Christ and thus lose his salvation. Of course there is also the differences about how different denominations see how man comes to God. Some believe man must of his own volition choose God - Arminius. Others believe that God chooses man - Calvin.

    Just the same, the very generalized statements I made any Christian theologian would agree with.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 08-28-09 at 09:03 PM.
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    Re: Fla. students' shirts: 'Islam is of the Devil'

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Ok, not to turn this into a theological argument, but there is nothing incorrect about what I said, it was nothing but "Mere Christianity" as C.S. Lewis would put it.

    Yes, Catholics recognize works, but they see works as a product of salvation. Not as something one earns it with.

    It is core to Christianity regardless of the denomination that man cannot redeem himself. If man could redeem himself, then there would have been no reason for Christ to suffer and die on the cross for the sins of man.

    The differences in denominations, even between Catholics and Protestants are largely nuanced. For example, some denominations recognize sacraments as means of conveying grace, others see them as simply symbolic. Some believe once saved always saved, others believe that man can turn from God after accepting Christ and thus lose his salvation. Of course there is also the differences about how different denominations see how man comes to God. Some believe man must of his own volition choose God - Arminius. Others believe that God chooses man - Calvin.

    Just the same, the very generalized statements I made any Christian theologian would agree with.
    Note: I'm guessing I'm talking to a Christian here, if you're an agnostic or atheist I'm not really interested in debating the existence of God or anything like that.


    I disagree, as Tawney said the issue of works is a big divide, they play far more a part than you allow. You are putting a very protestant, personal-faith spin on it. For us Catholics, whether we be Romans or Anglicans, and those of the Orthodox faith, there is a definite place for works as part of salvation and the church as a mediator between God and man.

    Another point is that most, except perhaps the Calvinists, believe we choose Jesus which is how we gain redemption. This is how man redeems himself and Jesus redeems him at the same time. Whether this is compatible with Buddhism and such, not in a soft ecumenical level, but a deeper level is debatable and to me I agree with the likes of Lord Northbourne and Rene Guenon and think it is. Obviously the outer exoteric layers may not be but the deeper stuff is. This doesn't mean one should try and combine them, one should stick to their own tradition but recognise that God would not abandon most of mankind and he has given them another path to the same location.

    It is similar to heaven, if one accepts the regular, exoteric view made for the common man then heaven is quite different from Nirvana but when one looks at it deeper as the theologians and mystics have then heaven is certainly not the pearly gates and dancing on clouds but something much closer to Nirvana.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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