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Thread: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    I already posted it, but I guess this proves you don't even bother reading proof when I put it in a post.
    Now there's a difference between each as you claimed and most as the IG report claims. Again you're emphatically qualifying what you're saying just like you did with "they sung like canaries." Now either it was effective and they sung like canaries from the technique as you first claimed or it wasn't that effective because it only lasted 10 seconds. Which one is it?

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Yes, if he could start backing up his posts half as well as I do, then that would be great.

    Thanks for the compliment.
    The problem is that you haven't even clearly examined the "evidence" you post, given that it is equally supportive of the opposing perspective (i.e., that torture doesn't work better, or that the evidence is unclear).

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    The report that Gill posted mentions Abu Zubaida several times:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058213824

    This is what we now know about this person, several months after the report:

    "The government doesn't retreat from who KSM is, and neither does KSM," said Joseph Margulies, a professor of law at Northwestern University and one of Abu Zubaida's attorneys, using an abbreviation for Mohammed. "With Zubaida, it's different. The government seems finally to understand he is not at all the person they thought he was. But he was tortured. And that's just a profoundly embarrassing position for the government to be in."

    ...Even before President Obama suspended military commissions at the military base in Cuba, prosecutors had expunged Abu Zubaida's name from the charge sheets of a number of detainees who were captured with him and stood accused of conspiracy and material support for terrorism.

    When they were first charged in 2005, these detainees were accused of conspiring with Abu Zubaida, and the charge sheets contained numerous references to Abu Zubaida's alleged terrorist activities. When the charges were refiled last year, his name had vanished from the documents.

    ...The application of techniques such as waterboarding -- a form of simulated drowning that U.S. officials had previously deemed a crime -- prompted a sudden torrent of names and facts. Abu Zubaida began unspooling the details of various al-Qaeda plots, including plans to unleash weapons of mass destruction.

    Abu Zubaida's revelations triggered a series of alerts and sent hundreds of CIA and FBI investigators scurrying in pursuit of phantoms. The interrogations led directly to the arrest of Jose Padilla, the man Abu Zubaida identified as heading an effort to explode a radiological "dirty bomb" in an American city. Padilla was held in a naval brig for 3 1/2 years on the allegation but was never charged in any such plot. Every other lead ultimately dissolved into smoke and shadow, according to high-ranking former U.S. officials with access to classified reports.

    "We spent millions of dollars chasing false alarms," one former intelligence official said.

    Despite the poor results, Bush White House officials and CIA leaders continued to insist that the harsh measures applied against Abu Zubaida and others produced useful intelligence that disrupted terrorist plots and saved American lives.

    Two weeks ago, Bush's vice president, Richard B. Cheney, renewed that assertion in an interview with CNN, saying that "the enhanced interrogation program" stopped "a great many" terrorist attacks on the level of Sept. 11.

    "I've seen a report that was written, based upon the intelligence that we collected then, that itemizes the specific attacks that were stopped by virtue of what we learned through those programs," Cheney asserted, adding that the report is "still classified," and, "I can't give you the details of it without violating classification."

    Since 2006, Senate intelligence committee members have pressed the CIA, in classified briefings, to provide examples of specific leads that were obtained from Abu Zubaida through the use of waterboarding and other methods, according to officials familiar with the requests.

    The agency provided none, the officials said.
    Detainee's Harsh Treatment Foiled No Plots
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 08-25-09 at 12:05 PM.

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    I have asked this question at least 3 times with no response that I have seen....So I'll try again:

    If Bush & Cheney could have produced classified evidence that proved waterboarding (torture) techniques actually produced good information, why didn't they "Leak" it when they had the power to do so???

    (they had no problem leaking the name of a covert CIA agent in time of war, why wouldn't they have proved their torture techniques worked??)

    Answer: Because torture doesn't work to get useful information....The "torturee" will simply concoct any BS to stop the torturing.
    Last edited by Devil505; 08-25-09 at 12:15 PM.

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    I have asked this question at least 3 times with no response that I have seen.

    If Bush & Cheney could have produced classified evidence that waterboarding (torture) techniques actually produced good information, why didn't they "Leak" it when they had the power to do so???

    (they had no problem leaking the name of a covert CIA agent in time of war, why wouldn't they have proved their torture techniques worked??)

    Answer: Because torture doesn't work to get useful information....The "torturee" will simply concoct any BS to stop the torturing.

    Devil its the same answer as if Sadam had WMDs why didn't he use them on our soldiers when we invaded?

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    I have asked this question at least 3 times with no response that I have seen....So I'll try again:

    If Bush & Cheney could have produced classified evidence that waterboarding (torture) techniques actually produced good information, why didn't they "Leak" it when they had the power to do so???

    (they had no problem leaking the name of a covert CIA agent in time of war, why wouldn't they have proved their torture techniques worked??)

    Answer: Because torture doesn't work to get useful information....The "torturee" will simply concoct any BS to stop the torturing.
    And you know this how?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    And you know this how?
    What????

    Have you seen any such leaked proof??

    Edit:

    OK...Now I understand your point.

    Then you tell me....If torture works...... why did they not leak proof of that?? (because Bush/Cheney didn't want to break the law???)
    Last edited by Devil505; 08-25-09 at 12:20 PM.

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    Our children died on 9-11, better their children than ours. I did not make the world, I only try to survie in it. I prefer they die for their cause versus our children dying for ours. Don't like it,tuff. Kill what needs to be killed then stop until you have to kill some more.
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    Quote Originally Posted by rhinefire View Post
    Our children died on 9-11, better their children than ours. I did not make the world, I only try to survie in it. I prefer they die for their cause versus our children dying for ours. Don't like it,tuff. Kill what needs to be killed then stop until you have to kill some more.
    Yes, because striving to better our lots in life and promote some amount of diplomacy is just stupid. Better to sacrifice life after life of our own brethren for some ill conceived notion of war or ability to end it or plan on how it will improve things. Much better.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: CIA 'threatened September 11 suspect's children'

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    Terrorists also threaten one's family as do mobsters.
    What now diffrentiates between the CIA interrogators vs a gangster?
    CIA did this to protect our country. That's the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    We are supposed to be better, are we not?
    What moral ground do we have if we resort to their tactics?
    It's not about being better. It's about defeating the enemy. There are no points for second place and this isn't a popularity contest.

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    It's not just a matter of morals alone; it's the problem of the quality of the intel you get.
    Through such measures you will never know whether or not the intel you collect is any good. People will admit to anything under duress.
    Our soliders admitted to being criminals against humanity when the N. Koreans and Viet Cong tortured them. Giving taped confessions and admissions of guilt.
    Look at the solider that was captured by the Taliban - on camera admitting various criminal and murderous acts.
    It's a stupid methodology that only serves to satisfy a very primitive form of instinct by some very narrow minded who do not seek for intel, but punishment.
    It doesn't matter what intel you get, or how you get it, it isn't credible until you confirm it. If torture didn't work, it would have faded out about 2,000 years ago. Since it's still in use, to this day, obviously, someone has achieved some good results from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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