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Thread: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

  1. #171
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    In fact I have repeatedly said you can base most of it on secular ethics and many have. Not that I'm ashamed to admit religious morality and simply referencing that is not an argument mate.


    You said yourself your friggin ideology was based less on consumerism and more on human needs and spiritual needs. How the HELL would spiritual needs incorporate secularism? Thats all i need to know.

    I'm wondering why we are discussing this topic any more. I have yet to see any real comprehension from you on this topic. At least try and get a grip on what I'm actually saying and advocating.
    Your ideology does not advocate secularism as much as you claim it can have secular ethics which it obviously cant. If you don't believe in the sanctity of secularism you shouldn't be talking about the economy.

    Was Thomas Jefferson a Catholic? Was Henry George? Was Peter Kropotkin or Lewis Mumford or Kirkpatrick Sale or the Southern Agrarians?
    Where they in someway associated to a religion? The thing with your ideology is, it varies from person to person depending on what religion they would like to see a distributive economy worked with. You for example have the "christian view". So naturally you would want to incorporate that with your distributive ideology? Thats all i need to know, ive lost all respect at that point.

    Also you haven't answered my questions on child labour laws or gov't
    [/QUOTE]

    The hell does that have to do with spirituality?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  2. #172
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    You said yourself your friggin ideology was based less on consumerism and more on human needs and spiritual needs. How the HELL would spiritual needs incorporate secularism? Thats all i need to know.
    I think you are misunderstanding spiritual what means. It simply is talking about higher motivations than material possessions such as creativity, community, companionship and such. Even many agnostics and atheists recognise this side of man. It is not directly a religious thing. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is mostly as reflective of this view as much as any religious document.


    It does seem this misunderstanding of what spiritual means or can mean has very much led you to misunderstand me.



    Your ideology does not advocate secularism as much as you claim it can have secular ethics which it obviously cant. If you don't believe in the sanctity of secularism you shouldn't be talking about the economy.
    Firstly that is an unsupported assertion which I reject, let's try and have a discussion without that. I could easily counter that if you don't believe morality always has a place in human affairs then you shouldn't be talking about them.

    Secondly my ideology cannot be compatible with crass materialism that views man's only needs as the gaining of material possessions and fulfillment of low passions. It is compatible with many non-religious, and certainly non-traditional religious, views however including many that could be classified as secular. It is simply based on a view of man as having many higher needs that go unfulfilled by consumerism.


    Where they in someway associated to a religion?
    Some were, some weren't.

    The thing with your ideology is, it varies from person to person depending on what religion they would like to see a distributive economy worked with. You for example have the "christian view". So naturally you would want to incorporate that with your distributive ideology? Thats all i need to know, ive lost all respect at that point.
    Firstly when you say you separate morality from human affairs that destroys all my respect for your economic ideology. Secondly I do believe in religion and its place in society but it has only a marginal place in my economic theory, as an agnostic I held quite a similar viewpoint. It is based around the idea of man and his needs I've spelt out several times already.


    The hell does that have to do with spirituality?
    It has to do with morality and what you think human needs are. If you don't believe in child labour or bans cigarette advertising or pretty much any intervention in the economy in the name of a better society then you are being inconsistent.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 08-24-09 at 09:45 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #173
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding spiritual means. It simply is talking about higher motivations than material possessions such as creativity, community, companionship and such. Even many agnostics and atheists recognise this side of man. It is not directly a religious thing. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is somewhat as reflective of this view as much as any religious document.
    So the economy arranges camping days out and "must attend" leisure centers? What business is this of the economies?

    It does seem this misunderstanding of what spiritual means or can mean has very much led you to misunderstand me.
    Perhaps ive misunderstood you. Spirituality to me is religious baloney, not "community work".



    Secondly my ideology cannot be compatible with crass materialism that views man's only needs as the gaining of material possessions and fulfillment of low passions. It is compatible with many non-religious, and certainly non-traditional religious, however including many that could be classified as secular. It is simply based on a view of man as having many higher needs that go unfulfilled by consumerism.
    The needs of man is not yours to dictate. We all have indivisual needs. Some believe material things are all they want. Others don't...so what?



    Firstly when you say you separate morality from human affairs that destroys all my respect for your economic ideology. Secondly I do believe in religion and its place in society but it has only a marginal place in my economic theory, as an agnostic I held quite a similar viewpoint. It is based around the idea of man and his needs I've spelt out several times already.
    Religion is not for the economy to enforce or assert, thats for the people to decide.



    It has to do with morality and what you think human needs are. If you don't believe in child labour or bans cigarette advertising or pretty much any intervention in the economy in the name of a better society then you are being inconsistent.
    Im talking about spirituality, not morality. Every idiot can tell you that an economy needs to fall within certain moral boundaries.

    Some were, some weren't.
    Of course they where.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 08-24-09 at 09:49 PM.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Tories "will scrap hunting ban" - Telegraph

    Nice to see Tories still know how to make this a class issue and where their priority lies.
    What the hell? Only toffs go gallivanting off to tear a fox apart in a red suit all done up :/
    Here in Virginia, it's much better to have a Hunt, than have a bloody Deer come crashing thru your Car Window at 65 MPH. We've well over 300,000 of the bloody buggers in our State alone. Plus we have a Program to turn in the Game for the Needy.

    Venison, for the Poor.

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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    So the economy arranges camping days out and must attend leisure centers? What business is this of the economies?
    It is my view that society should be arranged to help man fulfill his needs and potential. The economy is very much part of society. Just about everyone believes similar, even you. Don't pretend you view of man is neutral nor that pretending people should simply be allowed to choose in an economy that is part of a society, full of power relationships and state intervention is neutral either.


    Perhaps ive misunderstood you. Spirituality to me religious baloney, not "community work".
    It is not community work and please try and not be offensive to my religious views. Have you ever read Lord Northbourne? I recommend his work.



    The needs of man is not yours to dictate. We all have indivisual needs. Some believe material things are all they want. Others don't...so what?
    I have my views on society. It is pretty much excepted most people have higher needs, hence Maslow's place in psychology. Again don't pretend your view of man is neutral nor that our society is.

    You have a naive view of the economy, as if it isn't very much part of society and as if there isn't very much a massive load of state intervention in our economy anyway. Corporations for instance are creatures of state fiat which separate ownership from control, in contradiction to common law ownership, and encourage irresponsibility and consolidation.

    Do I have a right as a 12 year old to work done a mine-shaft and not go to school? Or is the fuller development of my intellectual faculties more important?



    Religion is not for the economy to enforce or assert, thats for the people to decide.
    The economy is part of society. I believe in making it better for man in a libertarian and decentralist fashion like replacing most taxes with a locally collected land value tax and encouraging mutual banking.

    If I followed your advise I pretty much had better give up on my social views and my wish to decentralise gov't as these are based partly on my views of man which are in contradiction to crass materialism. Perhaps I should just become a Thatcherite? Maybe there is no such thing as society? And why shouldn't I embrace the EU? Nations don't matter, the sooner we have world gov't the better.

    Of course I'd still actually be trying to enact my view of man, it would just be the prevailing consumerist, corporate-capitalist one.
    Im talking about spirituality, not morality. Every idiot can tell you that an economy needs to fall within certain moral boundaries.
    These moral boundaries are based on a view of man as is my idea of spirituality. If you believe in these rules then you go beyond the Thatcherism you are espousing.

    Of course they where.
    I don't think Kirkpatrick Sale or [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Mumford"]Lewis Mumford[/ame] could be said to be and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kropotkin"]Peter Kropotkin[/ame] was an anarchist. There are many more.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 08-24-09 at 10:08 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It is my view that society should be arranged to help man fulfill his needs and potential. The economy is very much part of society. Just about everyone believes similar, even you. Don't pretend you view of man is neutral nor that pretending people should simply be allowed to choose in an economy that is part of a society, full of power relationships and state intervention is neutral either.



    It is not community work and please try and not be offensive to my religious views. Have you ever read Lord Northbourne? I recommend his work.




    I have my views on society. It is pretty much excepted most people have higher needs, hence Maslow's place in psychology. Again don't pretend your view of man is neutral nor that our society is.

    You have a naive view of the economy, as if it isn't very much part of society and as if there isn't very much a massive load of state intervention in our economy anyway. Corporations for instance are creatures of state fiat which separate ownership from control, in contradiction to common law ownership, and encourage irresponsibility and consolidation.

    Do I have a right as a 12 year old to work done a mine-shaft and not go to school? Or is the fuller development of my intellectual faculties more important?




    The economy is part of society. I believe in making it better for man in a libertarian and decentralist fashion like replacing most taxes with a locally collected land value tax and encouraging mutual banking.

    If I followed your advise I pretty much had better give up on my social views and my wish to decentralise gov't as these are based partly on my views of man which are in contradiction to crass materialism. Perhaps I should just become a Thatcherite? Maybe there is no such thing as society? And why shouldn't I embrace the EU? Nations don't matter, the sooner we have world gov't the better.

    Of course I'd still actually be trying to enact my view of man, it would just be the prevailing consumerist, corporate-capitalist one.
    These moral boundaries are based on a view of man as is my idea of spirituality. If you believe in these rules then you go beyond the Thatcherism you are espousing.

    I don't think Kirkpatrick Sale or Lewis Mumford could be said to be and Peter Kropotkin was an anarchist. There are many more.
    Im not pretending anything. Our society SHOULD be neutral and is. The people should make there own choices. This ideology is great, for the fascist religious whack job who intends to create a society based off Christian fundamentals. It is religious baloney. Its no better than Iran's theocracy. Thanks for sharing it anyway.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Im not pretending anything. Our society SHOULD be neutral and is.
    No it isn't. It cannot be, all societies help to encourage and development certain ideas and relationships among men. That is what society is about. Our society is no different, it has ways operating that reflect its view of man and which help to encourage some relationships and behaviours and discourage others.
    The people should make there own choices. This ideology is great, for the fascist religious whack job who intends to create a society based off Christian fundamentals. It is religious baloney. Its no better than Iran's theocracy. Thanks for sharing it anyway.
    This is not an argument but a few offensive assertions. Are you saying Peter Kropotkin or Thomas Jefferson were fascist, religious nutjobs? Not that I see anything wrong with having a Christian society, which incidentally has little to do with the progressive, radical ideology of fascism.

    If you really understood what I advocate you could hardly call me fascist. I believe in decentralised govt and a decentralised economy, hardly fascist, I believe in widespread ownership of productive property, hardly fascist, so that as many families can own some as possible, I believe in greatly reducing state intervention in the economy while providing the best arena for individual freedom, development and for strong healthy communities, hardly fascist. I believe generally in doing this in a quite hands-off, decentralist and libertarian way by laying a framework such as using a Georgist-style land value tax system while reducing or removing most taxes on labour and capital and encouraging mutual banking so average people can turn their real estate, durable goods and even labour time into credit to run a business with very low interest rates. Hardly fascist.

    Btw I don't believe in taking much direct action against consumerism. I believe it is a product of our corrupt, state-driven economy and minus the factors that cause that there would be a lot less of it. It is needed for one because state intervention encourages economic consolidation and increased production runs so that the economy becomes a supply-push based on manufacturers trying to create demand for their products rather than demand-pull economy where consumer demand is the driving factor of the economy.

    I'm disappointed in you Kaya, you have rarely actually engaged with my points or shown you comprehend what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 08-24-09 at 10:45 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Im not pretending anything. Our society SHOULD be neutral and is. The people should make there own choices. This ideology is great, for the fascist religious whack job who intends to create a society based off Christian fundamentals. It is religious baloney. Its no better than Iran's theocracy. Thanks for sharing it anyway.
    Or,,,understanding a thing Wessexman just tried to relate to you.

    Religion WASN'T MENTIONED.


    Good Night all.
    Last edited by Realist1; 08-24-09 at 10:41 PM.

  9. #179
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    No it isn't. It cannot be, all societies help to encourage and development certain ideas and relationships among men. That is what society is about. Our society is no different, it has ways operating that reflect its view of man and which help to encourage some relationships and behaviours and discourage others.
    This is not an argument but a few offensive assertions. Are you saying Peter Kropotkin or Thomas Jefferson were fascist, religious nutjobs? Not that I see anything wrong with having a Christian society, which incidentally has little to do with the progressive, radical ideology of fascism.

    If you really understood what I advocate you could hardly call me fascist. I believe in decentralised govt and a decentralised economy, hardly fascist, I believe in widespread ownership of productive property, hardly fascist, so that as many families can own some as possible, I believe in greatly reducing state intervention in the economy while providing the best arena for individual freedom, development and for strong healthy communities, hardly fascist. I believe generally in doing this in a quite hands-off, decentralist and libertarian way by laying a framework such as using a Georgist-style land value tax system while reducing or removing most taxes on labour and capital and encouraging mutual banking so average people can turn their real estate, durable goods and even labour time into credit to run a business with very low interest rates. Hardly fascist.

    Btw I don't believe in taking much direct action against consumerism. I believe it is a product of our corrupt, state-driven economy and minus the factors that cause that there would be a lot less of it. It is needed for one because state intervention encourages economic consolidation and increased production runs so that the economy becomes a supply-push based on manufacturers trying to create demand for their products rather than demand-pull economy where consumer demand is the driving factor of the economy.

    I'm disappointed in you Kaya, you have rarely actually engaged with my points or shown you comprehend what I'm talking about.
    Well ive had an aweful day so sorry if ive come across a bit of an arse. Maybe ill get back to you tommorrow. Im tired and im going to bed.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  10. #180
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Being American, I find it very intresting that this issue provoked so many posts and so much passion. If anyone does fox hunting in that manner in the US, I'm not aware of it, though it is possible.

    In some hunting sports, we do use dogs, but primarily to find and/or corner the critter in question before it is shot dead, or in the case of birds to find and retrieve same after the shot.

    Not my country, so I have little opinion on the matter.

    One thing someone said, about a fox hunt group tearing up his vegetable garden: yeah, that definately shouldn't be allowed, or at a minimum suitable compensation plus a little extra for the bother and mess. Are the hunts allowed to cross other's private property without leave? Sounds like they are.

    I grew up a farmboy, and I hunt sometimes, but my family tradition was to make a clean kill with one shot if at all possible, in order to be humane. It wasn't some big philosophy, just my Dad said "if you can't make a clean kill, better not to take the shot. Don't want it to suffer more than we can help."

    Otherhandwise, I can see where Wessexman is coming from: if these hunts take place in the countryside, it seems like it is the business of the folks living in the countryside whether they want it to be legal or not, and what sort of regulations might apply.

    None of my business really, I'm on the other side of the big pond.
    Thank you for your view.
    This issue has been debated and visited many times and provokes alot of feelings from all sides.
    It usually goes down to two sides. Pros and Antis.
    But can also go down country/city lines

    I have no problem with killing foxes when necessary, kill it in a humane way that can cause the least amount of pain and suffering to the animal.
    Last edited by Laila; 08-24-09 at 11:47 PM.


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