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Thread: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

  1. #121
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    We don't Kaya.

    We do not have a seperation like US. Legal and binding
    Our attitudes are secular but the state is entwined with the church
    Oh of course. Church of England. Sorry.
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Of course we do?
    Ever heard of the Church of England?


    Whats wrong with consumerism?
    I think we are way off on a tangent here but it is wrong for the reasons I have already briefly stated. Briefly put it puts consumption, and a very materially and poorly based idea of it, before the complete needs of man and society. For an intro though I cannot recommend E.F Schumacher's Buddhist economics from his Small is beautiful, a key work in the Green movement.

    The E. F. Schumacher Society • Buddhist Economics

    ....For the modern economist this is very difficult to understand. He is used to measuring the "standard of living" by the amount of annual consumption, assuming all the time that a man who consumes more is "better off" than a man who consumes less. A Buddhist economist would consider this approach excessively irrational: since consumption is merely a means to human well-being, the aim should be to obtain the maximum of well-being with the minimum of consumption. Thus, if the purpose of clothing is a certain amount of temperature comfort and an attractive appearance, the task is to attain this purpose with the smallest possible effort, that is, with the smallest annual destruction of cloth and with the help of designs that involve the smallest possible input of toil. The less toil there is, the more time and strength is left for artistic creativity. It would be highly uneconomic, for instance, to go in for complicated tailoring, like the modern West, when a much more beautiful effect can be achieved by the skillful draping of uncut material. It would be the height of folly to make material so that it should wear out quickly and the height of barbarity to make anything ugly, shabby, or mean. What has just been said about clothing applies equally to all other human requirements. The ownership and the consumption of goods is a means to an end, and Buddhist economics is the systematic study of how to attain given ends with the minimum means

    Modern economics, on the other hand, considers consumption to be the sole end and purpose of all economic activity, taking the factors of production—and, labour, and capital—as the means. The former, in short, tries to maximise human satisfactions by the optimal pattern of consumption, while the latter tries to maximise consumption by the optimal pattern of productive effort. It is easy to see that the effort needed to sustain a way of life which seeks to attain the optimal pattern of consumption is likely to be much smaller than the effort needed to sustain a drive for maximum consumption. We need not be surprised, therefore, that the pressure and strain of living is very much less in say, Burma, than it is in the United States, in spite of the fact that the amount of labour-saving machinery used in the former country is only a minute fraction of the amount used in the latter.

    Simplicity and non-violence are obviously closely related. The optimal pattern of consumption, producing a high degree of human satisfaction by means of a relatively low rate of consumption, allows people to live without great pressure and strain and to fulfill the primary injunction of Buddhist teaching: “Cease to do evil; try to do good.” As physical resources are everywhere limited, people satisfying their needs by means of a modest use of resources are obviously less likely to be at each other’s throats than people depending upon a high rate of use. Equally, people who live in highly self-sufficient local communities are less likely to get involved in large-scale violence than people whose existence depends on world-wide systems of trade.......


    I very much encourage you to read the whole thing and even the whole book.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 08-24-09 at 12:46 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #123
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Oh of course. Church of England. Sorry.
    Lol
    No problemo Kaya.
    Easy mistake to make, i forgot it is there sometimes too =P


  4. #124
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    I think we are way off on a tangent here but it is wrong for the reasons I have already briefly stated. Briefly put it puts consumption, and a very materially and poorly based idea of it, before the complete needs of man and society. For an intro though I cannot recommend E.F Schumacher's Buddhist economics from his Small is beautiful, a key work in the Green movement.

    The E. F. Schumacher Society • Buddhist Economics

    ....For the modern economist this is very difficult to understand. He is used to measuring the "standard of living" by the amount of annual consumption, assuming all the time that a man who consumes more is "better off" than a man who consumes less. A Buddhist economist would consider this approach excessively irrational: since consumption is merely a means to human well-being, the aim should be to obtain the maximum of well-being with the minimum of consumption. Thus, if the purpose of clothing is a certain amount of temperature comfort and an attractive appearance, the task is to attain this purpose with the smallest possible effort, that is, with the smallest annual destruction of cloth and with the help of designs that involve the smallest possible input of toil. The less toil there is, the more time and strength is left for artistic creativity. It would be highly uneconomic, for instance, to go in for complicated tailoring, like the modern West, when a much more beautiful effect can be achieved by the skillful draping of uncut material. It would be the height of folly to make material so that it should wear out quickly and the height of barbarity to make anything ugly, shabby, or mean. What has just been said about clothing applies equally to all other human requirements. The ownership and the consumption of goods is a means to an end, and Buddhist economics is the systematic study of how to attain given ends with the minimum means

    Modern economics, on the other hand, considers consumption to be the sole end and purpose of all economic activity, taking the factors of production—and, labour, and capital—as the means. The former, in short, tries to maximise human satisfactions by the optimal pattern of consumption, while the latter tries to maximise consumption by the optimal pattern of productive effort. It is easy to see that the effort needed to sustain a way of life which seeks to attain the optimal pattern of consumption is likely to be much smaller than the effort needed to sustain a drive for maximum consumption. We need not be surprised, therefore, that the pressure and strain of living is very much less in say, Burma, than it is in the United States, in spite of the fact that the amount of labour-saving machinery used in the former country is only a minute fraction of the amount used in the latter.

    Simplicity and non-violence are obviously closely related. The optimal pattern of consumption, producing a high degree of human satisfaction by means of a relatively low rate of consumption, allows people to live without great pressure and strain and to fulfill the primary injunction of Buddhist teaching: “Cease to do evil; try to do good.” As physical resources are everywhere limited, people satisfying their needs by means of a modest use of resources are obviously less likely to be at each other’s throats than people depending upon a high rate of use. Equally, people who live in highly self-sufficient local communities are less likely to get involved in large-scale violence than people whose existence depends on world-wide systems of trade.......


    I very much encourage you to read the whole thing and even the whole book.
    [/QUOTE]

    Consumerism is another personal thing that you are asking that the economy should intervene with. If your a religious person, your not going to be consumerist. If your atheist or agnostic, chances are you will be because you don't believe in God or all things spiritual so will believe that all material things are all there is and death is the end to all means. I believe an individual can be consumerist, not an economy. The economy is simply there to provide a service and exploit, what you do with it and how you interact with it is your choice. The economy doesn't dictate our lives or tell us how we should live. This whole catholic jumble sounds fascist to me. I'll read it anyway.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  5. #125
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    In England?
    Deers, foxes, Grouse and pheasant shooting is also popular.

    In Scotland you can hunt more.

    Legal .... for now.
    Not really, no. Our laws are pretty similar to England's on hunting. Restricted areas, restricted species, restricted weaponary. I've never actually met anyone that hunts though, just farmers that shoot as pest control.
    "I'll govern for all the ambitions of Scotland, and for all of the people who imagine that we can live in a better land. This party, the Scottish party, your party, carries your hope, and we shall carry it carefully, and make the nation proud."
    Alex Salmond, First Minister of Scotland, Scottish National Party

  6. #126
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    Not really, no. Our laws are pretty similar to England's on hunting. Restricted areas, restricted spies, restricted weaponary. I've never actually met anyone that hunts though, just farmers that shoot as pest control.
    Really?

    Now that is interesting and i learn something new everyday :P

    Off topic but has anyone ever seen 'Kill it, cook it, eat it' BBC show?


  7. #127
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post

    Consumerism is another personal thing that you are asking that the economy should intervene with. If your a religious person, your not going to be consumerist. If your atheist or agnostic, chances are you will be because you don't believe in God or all things spiritual so will believe that all material things are all there is and death is the end to all means. I believe an individual can be consumerist, not an economy. The economy is simply there to provide a service and exploit, what you do with it and how you interact with it is your choice. The economy doesn't dictate our lives or tell us how we should live. This whole catholic jumble sounds fascist to me. I'll read it anyway.
    Schumacher was a Catholic but he is also very important in ther Green movement. Believe me when I say opposition to Consumerism is far from a rightwing idea, in fact it is more prevalent on the left.

    Your argument above neglects the fact that any economy is situated in a society and is framed by it, it also neglects the massive state intervention that is and has always been inherent in what we call capitalism today.

    Either of these makes the idea that it is all about personal choice rather silly.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  8. #128
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    Not really, no. Our laws are pretty similar to England's on hunting. Restricted areas, restricted species, restricted weaponary. I've never actually met anyone that hunts though, just farmers that shoot as pest control.
    I've hunted rabbits when I was younger and done some fishing. Restrictions within reason are fine, it is only when they get silly and are being purposefully restrictive to make some anti-hunting point that I dislike. In the same way I support some restrictions on cigarettes but not a lot of the sillier stuff many gov'ts go in for these days.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #129
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Your argument above neglects the fact that any economy is situated in a society and is framed by it, it also neglects the massive state intervention that is and has always been inherent in what we call capitalism today.
    The economy is a system created, driven, and innovated by the people. It should be there purely for the purpose of exploiting and using. It does not dictate to us how we should live. If you dont believe in the basic principles of Capitalism then you dont believe in the basic principles of the West, and the free world which the UK happens to be part of. Consumerism is a personal choice. And what massive state intervention?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  10. #130
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    Re: Tories "will scrap hunting ban"

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Really?

    Now that is interesting and i learn something new everyday :P

    Off topic but has anyone ever seen 'Kill it, cook it, eat it' BBC show?
    Lol did you think we all ran about hunting haggis with our guns stuck in the waistbands of our kilts? That's just what we tell the Americans.

    And yep, I have. Very original idea for a cooking show.
    "I'll govern for all the ambitions of Scotland, and for all of the people who imagine that we can live in a better land. This party, the Scottish party, your party, carries your hope, and we shall carry it carefully, and make the nation proud."
    Alex Salmond, First Minister of Scotland, Scottish National Party

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