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Thread: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

  1. #261
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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    The steps that occur toward that end are predictable and unpleasant.
    Well, my advice to you is, better choose to convert to Shamanism than Islam. The feathers are much more fun.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  2. #262
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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    I was trying to find the verses referenced by SgtRock.

    I assume when he was quoting "Quran 4:90" or "4:91" that he was referring to the fourth Sura, which is Surah an-Nisa yes?

    4:90 and 4:91...

    90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allh has opened no way for you against them.

    91. You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.

    Neither of which appears to be what he was quoting, even accounting for a different translation.

    However, 4:88-89 (Surah an-Nisa 88-89) are much closer:

    88. Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allh has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allh has made to go astray? And he whom Allh has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).

    89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliy' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allh (to Muhammad ). But if they turn back (from Islm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliy' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

    That does seem to be saying that those who leave Islam should be killed. However, I don't claim to be an expert on the Quran, though I have read a lot of it and about it; if someone has an alternate interpretation, I'm listening.

    The Holy Quran online


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  3. #263
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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Well, my advice to you is, better choose to convert to Shamanism than Islam. The feathers are much more fun.
    Funny thing is that there are only a few things I don't like about Islam.

    The traditional enmity toward, Gays, Jews and Kaffirs, the cultural honor killings, the domination of women, death sentences for apostasy and the edict requiring they gain mastery over all mankind through non-violent or violent Jihad.

    OBL 11/24/02

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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I was trying to find the verses referenced by SgtRock.

    I assume when he was quoting "Quran 4:90" or "4:91" that he was referring to the fourth Sura, which is Surah an-Nisa yes?

    4:90 and 4:91...




    Neither of which appears to be what he was quoting, even accounting for a different translation.

    However, 4:88-89 (Surah an-Nisa 88-89) are much closer:




    That does seem to be saying that those who leave Islam should be killed. However, I don't claim to be an expert on the Quran, though I have read a lot of it and about it; if someone has an alternate interpretation, I'm listening.

    The Holy Quran online


    G.
    Sorry to be doing this Goshin, but here's my earlier post again. Hope this helps.

    ----
    It is true that Islamic countries need alot of reform but the majority of Muslims do not apply what's in the book word by word.

    In Islam, the only 3 reasons given for killing another Muslim is, adultary, killing another human (eye for an eye...) and abandoning Islam. However, it is also said that a person shall only be killed after being judged. Also, and this is important to know, there is no Islamic law that permits a person to take the authority of a judge in his own hands. A person cannot try another person and condemn him to death, only a court can. Therefore the term "honour killings" in Islam in basically utter tosh.

    Now, I'm not saying that these laws are not shocking, they are and that is why I started this post by saying that Islamic countries need reform and as I've said many times, the Koran was written in another time and another context. What seemed fair at that time, looks shocking in our time.

    That said, there is no proof that the father threatend his daughter, but yes, even if there is a minor chance that she might get killed or hurt, she should not be returned to her family because these crimes, due to IGNORANCE, do exist.
    ----
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    As to Islam regarding other religion, there is one Surat in the Koran which is memorised by Muslims and repeated all the time

    Say: Unbelievers, I do not serve what you worship, nor do you serve what I worship. I shall never serve what you worship, nor will you ever serve what I worship. You have your own religion and I have mine.

    In Arabic, Lakom Dinukum wa li Dini.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    I'm probably 20 pages too late, but did anybody mention God telling Abraham to kill his own son? Perhaps this scenario would be pretty similar (except, oh no- it's not a Christian).

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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    Funny thing is that there are only a few things I don't like about Islam.

    The traditional enmity toward, Gays, Jews and Kaffirs, the cultural honor killings, the domination of women, death sentences for apostasy and the edict requiring they gain mastery over all mankind through non-violent or violent Jihad.
    Gays: not exclussive to Islam or to religion

    Jews: Wasn't it the Christians who deprived the Jews from land ownership because they didn't accept Christ as the son of God but rather as the king of the Jesws ?

    Kafirs: in Arabic Kafer, see my post above

    Honour kiliings: see me second post above

    Women: Women are very highly respected in the Koran. The part that seem shocking is the beating. It appears in only one verse which I will gladly copy. It sounds shocking to me as well

    Death sentence: 3 cases only in the Koran. Adultary, killing of another human and abandoning Islam. Different age different context. Shocking to me as well.

    Jihad: 2 kinds of Jihad Jihad al Akbar (greater Jihad)- the inward jihad, the aim of each Muslim to become a better human being
    Jihad al-Asghar (lesser Jihad) self preservation and self defence. Do you know any people who doesn't defend itself ?

    All of that said and since you said that you dislike only a few things about Islma, so tell us, what is it that you like and admire ?
    Last edited by Mira; 08-24-09 at 06:27 PM.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  8. #268
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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke[MaxX] View Post
    I'm probably 20 pages too late, but did anybody mention God telling Abraham to kill his own son? Perhaps this scenario would be pretty similar (except, oh no- it's not a Christian).
    Not quite as relevant when you consider that God stopped Abram (Abraham) from sacrificing his son before it was actually done. It was a test of his loyalty and devotion that stopped short of actually killing the young man.

    So no, not quite the same thing.

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  9. #269
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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Not quite as relevant when you consider that God stopped Abram (Abraham) from sacrificing his son before it was actually done. It was a test of his loyalty and devotion that stopped short of actually killing the young man.

    So no, not quite the same thing.
    God was slightly heartless to test someones faith using their child

    I'd choose my child over anyone else


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    Re: Teen Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    Funny thing is that there are only a few things I don't like about Islam.

    The traditional enmity toward, Gays, Jews and Kaffirs, the cultural honor killings, the domination of women, death sentences for apostasy and the edict requiring they gain mastery over all mankind through non-violent or violent Jihad.
    If women were truly treated as badly as some of you claim with us being battered around and treated like filth, made to cover up (lol)

    I wouldn't be a Muslim.

    So what do you like about Islam now that we know what you dislike.
    Last edited by Laila; 08-24-09 at 06:34 PM.


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