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Thread: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    I don't imagine that you can win here, Slainte. Not because you're not correct, of course, but because there's a disgustingly pervasive mentality in this country that involves blind and irrational trust in any court system. O.J. Simpson's acquittal, of course, does not deter many from claiming that he's guilty nonetheless, but for some reason, legal conviction is treated entirely differently. There is certainly substantial impropriety involved if key prosecution witness Gauci was indeed paid a $2 million sum to testify against Megrahi, and I found this statement of a UN observer to be of significant interest:

    Dr. Hans Koechler said that the dramatic shortcomings and errors in the conduct of the trial that have been brought to the attention of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission (SCCRC) confirm his earlier assessment that the Lockerbie trial resulted in a “spectacular miscarriage of justice.” (BBC News, 14 March 2002) Dr. Koechler pointed to the following information that transpired in the media and that puts in doubt the very integrity of the judicial process in the Lockerbie case:

    1. The credibility of a key forensic expert in the trial, Mr. Allen Feraday (UK), has been shattered. It was revealed that “in three separate cases men against whom Mr. Feraday gave evidence have now had their convictions overturned” (BBC, 19 August 2005). Mr. Feraday had told the Lockerbie court that a circuit board fragment found after the disaster was part of the detonator used in the bomb on board Pan Am flight 103. In the first case where Mr. Feraday’s credibility had been questioned the Lord Chief Justice had stated that Mr. Feraday should not be allowed to present himself an expert in electronics.

    2. A retired Scottish police officer has signed a statement confirming that the evidence that found Al-Megrahi guilty was fabricated. The police chief, whose identity has not yet been revealed, testified “that the CIA planted the tiny fragment of circuit board crucial in convicting a Libyan” for the bombing of the Pan Am jet (Scotland on Sunday, 28 August 2005). The fragment was supposedly part of the timing device that triggered the bomb. The circumstances of its discovery – in a wooded area many miles from Lockerbie months after the atrocity – have been mysterious from the very beginning.

    3. Much earlier, a forensic specialist of the American FBI, Tom Thurman, who was publicly credited with figuring out the fragment’s evidentiary importance, was later discredited as a forensic expert. A 1997 report by the US Justice Department’s Office of the Inspector General found “that in a number of cases other than Lockerbie, Thurman rewrote lab reports, making them more favorable to the prosecution. The report also recommended Thurman be reassigned to a non-scientific job because he lacked a background in science.” (American RadioWorks / Public Radio, March 2000)

    4. The most recent revelation relates to a mix-up of forensic evidence recovered on the ground in Lockerbie with material used during a series of test explosions in the course of the investigation. In one case, a garment which was damaged in a test explosion was presented as if it was the original garment found on the ground (which was completely undamaged). This garment was supposedly placed in the suitcase containing the bomb. “It casts serious doubts over the prosecution case because certain items that should have been destroyed if they were in the case containing the bomb are now known to have survived the blast.” (The Observer, London, 9 October 2005)

    All these facts – which are now before the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission – confirm the serious doubts about the Lockerbie proceedings originally raised by the UN-appointed observer, Dr. Hans Koechler. In his comprehensive reports on and evaluation of the Lockerbie trial (2001) and appeal (2002) as well as in his statement on the compensation deal made between the US, UK and Libya in 2003, Dr. Koechler had criticized the highly politicized circumstances in which the case was handled and drew the attention of the international public to the possible interference of intelligence services from more than one country.
    To summarize, regardless of whether or not he is guilty (and there seems to be insufficient evidence to convict him), it's not unreasonable to note that much of the key evidence submitted in the trial may have been fabricated, and it's therefore absurd to suggest that repetition of this unjust process would somehow aid Megrahi. As with the cases of Assata Shakur and Mumia Abu-Jamal here in the U.S., there may have been substantial motivation to convict him due to pressure from political or ideological interests.

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    To summarize, regardless of whether or not he is guilty (and there seems to be insufficient evidence to convict him), it's not unreasonable to note that much of the key evidence submitted in the trial may have been fabricated, and it's therefore absurd to suggest that repetition of this unjust process would somehow aid Megrahi. As with the cases of Assata Shakur and Mumia Abu-Jamal here in the U.S., there may have been substantial motivation to convict him due to pressure from political or ideological interests.
    May is an hilarious word to use in an argument.
    Yes, the evidence may have been fabricated, and 9/11 may have been an inside job, and you may actually be a female and not a male as you claim yourself to be.
    But that's just 'may', you could say 'may' about pretty much anything, no matter how butt**** insane it is.

    As far as the law goes in the Western society, if a person was convicted in court, he is guilty, and unless he's acquitted, he stays guilty.
    We cannot, as a society, simply ignore the rule of law and allow criminals to be released simply because the justice system may be wrong.
    If he was innocent, he would be acquitted.
    He wasn't acquitted, there's no sense in portraying him as an innocent.

    We should just acknowledge that on the 20th of August, 2009, the Scottish government has released a person that is guilty with the murdering of 270 innocent human beings.
    This should serve as a lesson for the rest of the Western world as to what happens when a state becomes obsessed with freedoms and liberties, until it frees a monster that has committed an horrific crime above that nation's soil, in a show of mercy for the monster's health problems.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    If he was innocent, he would be acquitted.
    He wasn't acquitted, there's no sense in portraying him as an innocent.
    I'm not interested in fellating dysfunctional court systems. It's quite simple for many to claim that O.J. Simpson is a murderer despite the fact that he was acquitted in a jury trial; it's not anything but absurd for the same to claim that a non-jury trial that appears to have been tainted is somehow undeserving of any reproach.

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I'm not interested in fellating dysfunctional court systems. It's quite simple for many to claim that O.J. Simpson is a murderer despite the fact that he was acquitted in a jury trial; it's not anything but absurd for the same to claim that a non-jury trial that appears to have been tainted is somehow undeserving of any reproach.
    I don't care for hypocrisy blaming or whatever you're at it, the Lockerbie bomber is guilty by law and guilty by any kind of sense.
    It is ridiculous to simply claim that he is innocent because the justice system is sometimes(rarely) wrong.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I don't care for hypocrisy blaming or whatever you're at it, the Lockerbie bomber is guilty by law and guilty by any kind of sense.
    Blind trust in the law and bodies of government when it's clearly undeserved is among the most sickeningly irrational forms of appeasement to injustice. Considering the realities of advancements in forensic technology having revealed the wrongful convictions of numerous "guilty" persons, any reasonable analyst would be wary of pronouncements of ethical guilt based on ambiguous legal conviction, especially in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    It is ridiculous to simply claim that he is innocent because the justice system is sometimes(rarely) wrong.
    It would be. That's probably why I did not claim that he was innocent, and instead claimed that there appeared to be insufficient sound evidence to legally convict him, and deficiencies present in his legal trial that prevented a respectable ruling on his innocence or guilt.

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Blind trust in the law and bodies of government when it's clearly undeserved is among the most sickeningly irrational forms of appeasement to injustice. Considering the realities of advancements in forensic technology having revealed the wrongful convictions of numerous "guilty" persons, any reasonable analyst would be wary of pronouncements of ethical guilt based on ambiguous legal conviction, especially in this case.
    That's not a "blind trust" in the justice system, that's simply rationality.
    If this thing was innocent, he would be acquitted.
    He wasn't acquitted, and was convicted, he's guilty.
    While there were some cases when the Justice system was wrong, those rare cases are, as they're called, rare cases.
    The justice system isn't perfect, but that's not a reason to go around questioning the guilt of low-life mass murderers.
    It would be. That's probably why I did not claim that he was innocent, and instead claimed that there appeared to be insufficient sound evidence to legally convict him, and deficiencies present in his legal trial that prevented a respectable ruling on his innocence or guilt
    That's your opinion, other people think differently, the Scottish justice system was with the 'other people' on that thought, he was found guilty and was convicted.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That's not a "blind trust" in the justice system, that's simply rationality.
    If this thing was innocent, he would be acquitted.
    I really don't care how many times you repeat such a nonsensical statement; it will continue to be blatantly wrong. Actual innocence or guilt cannot be altered by judicial rulings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That's your opinion, other people think differently, the Scottish justice system was with the 'other people' on that thought, he was found guilty and was convicted.
    Yes, we've established that he was convicted. There's also been an attempt to identify substantial deficiencies in the nature of his trial and the evidence submitted therein. You've not attempted to address this; you've merely repeated the already established fact that he was convicted.

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I really don't care how many times you repeat such a nonsensical statement; it will continue to be blatantly wrong. Actual innocence or guilt cannot be altered by judicial rulings.
    But society has to define its criminals, so we let the Justice system decide who's a criminal and who isn't.
    That's the best option there is, no justice system would simply mean anarchy and chaos, with criminals and innocents roaming the streets alike.
    You've not attempted to address this; you've merely repeated the already established fact that he was convicted.
    I'm glad we are in agreement?
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Wait, isn't whole point of a life sentence is that the convict, you know, dies in prison?

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    Re: Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    But society has to define its criminals, so we let the Justice system decide who's a criminal and who isn't.
    That's the best option there is, no justice system would simply mean anarchy and chaos, with criminals and innocents roaming the streets alike.
    This has absolutely no relation to the fact that the judicial process cannot alter actual innocence or guilt, and that it is therefore crude and inaccurate to refer to a disputed judicial conviction as evidence of such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I'm glad we are in agreement?
    Apparently. Since you haven't attempted to dispute the suspicious nature of some of the evidence that contributed to his conviction, I'll have to assume that you've conceded that this is a problem.

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