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Thread: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

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    Educator ScottD's Avatar
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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's like saying that the invention of laws against murder created all them murderers.
    Apple and Oranges.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad - Times Online


    Gee... wasn't that one of Bush's big concerns, if we leave too soon, the country will get hammered by violence... oh look, PBO rushed out and ... gasp!
    OK, we've been there for six years now...hardly "rushing out." How much longer do you suggest we stay?
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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Maybe you wouldn't mind having your family buried in mass graves, but it bothers the rest of us decent people to see it.
    Hyperbolic fearmongering doesn't really bolster your side of this argument...
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    obama, who's always bitching about all the bad stuff he "inherited," was given an iraq almost miraculously pacified with the possibility of baghdad actually emerging as the one democratic example in the terminally troubled middle east, something folks my age thought we'd never see

    all my long adult life, the middle east has been insoluble, hopeless, domain of despair

    yet its strategic significance made it the likeliest starting point of earth's final world war

    all the greatest minds on the planet banged their heads against the impossible middle east, trying everything---crack downs, easings up, rewards, sanctions, talks, isolation, billions of dollars of aid...

    nothing worked, nothing offered any HOPE of working

    for 25 years saddam was one of the world's ugliest leaders in fomenting international terrorism

    any war on terror that did not address iraq was hardly likely to see much success

    obama "inherited" a world WITHOUT saddam hussein

    just imagine the problems the IDIOT in the white house already is overwhelmed by if they were COMPLICATED by a living, breathing iraqi strongman

    obama has NO INTEREST in iraq, he really just wants it all to go away

    he would simply dismiss the entire incendiary issue with a regal sweep of his toga'd left hand

    unfortunately, the region is not going to go away

    indeed, it holds the potential to EXPLODE at any time in the mount rushmore face of the IDIOT in the white house

    his policy pertaining to baghdad and beyond can be seen as OSTRICH

    just bury your head and hope for the best

    but whether he wants to OWN the issue or not, it's HIS

    the poor thing---everything is just always so UNFAIR

    so eager to get out, so desirous of hands off, he actually encourages the enemies of stability to come out and do their thing

    you've got bigmouth biden, whom bigears obama put in particular charge of iraq, announcing---if any of you bad guys kill enough little girls, we're LEAVING

    Biden: US might pull out of Iraq politics

    an outright INVITATION to violence

    the LID is gonna come OFF in iraq, it's just a matter of time

    obama's OSTRICH policy actively CREATES instability

    meanwhile, he's in afghanistan for POLITICAL purpose only, and those CHEAP motives don't even pertain to governance but are instead simply left over from his CAMPAIGN

    he PLEDGED to do go into the mountains on the moon above karbala certainly not because he believed in US arms, rights, interests or action

    no, his sole purpose in broaching afghanistan WAS to prove to the people that he was NOT your traditional anti-military, blame-america-first democrat

    his reason for being there NOW is simply not to look like a complete phony

    THIS is why americans must die in the mountains in record numbers

    bush actually believed in what he was doing, and he almost pulled off the impossible

    it's up to obama to FINISH that job, it's his responsibility, whether he likes it or not

    both iraq and afghanistan are SURE to drag him down

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottD View Post
    Apple and Oranges.
    No, it's not. There were thousands of non-Germans that joined the SS when Britain, France and the US declared war on Nazi Germany. Did we create all those Nazis? No, we didn't. They made a choice to take an active part in defending Facism. The jihadists did the same thing
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, it's not. There were thousands of non-Germans that joined the SS when Britain, France and the US declared war on Nazi Germany. Did we create all those Nazis? No, we didn't. They made a choice to take an active part in defending Facism. The jihadists did the same thing
    The question of how much censorship was involved in their information input is...another question.
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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad - Times Online


    Gee... wasn't that one of Bush's big concerns, if we leave too soon, the country will get hammered by violence... oh look, PBO rushed out and ... gasp!
    It doesn't matter when we pull out. There will be slaughter. And there is a very real good reason for it.

    Throughout history, "peace" has always come between tribes only after one slaughters enough of the other. We find ourselves audience to a world made wrong by European colonialism. A world where tribes were forced together or divided and then later maintained by America and the U.S.S.R. throughout the Cold War.

    Somalia? Tribes.

    Bosnia? Tribal slaughter merely placed on pause by the west until it is abe to complete what it started.

    Iraq? It's only a matter of time before the tribes clean house. The Sunni hate the Shia and they hate the Kurds enough to murder and to commit genocide.

    Pakistan? Merely a matter of time.

    We have fooled ourselves into thinking that just because we are civil in our day to day encounters within our local western borders that the rest of the world wasn't placed on pause throughout the 20th century. The first half of the 20th century was centered and focused on European tribal conflict. The last half saw the world's tribes maintained or contained by either America's inherited or designed dictator or the Soviet's inherited or designed dictator. If the tribes of Europe saw themselves important enough to drag the world into global chaos twice, then how have we designed for ourselves such a comfortable ignorance as to not identify a post Cold War world where the oppressed and repressed tribes of the third world are being set free? A world where neighbors hold nuclear arms... or worse...contain nuclear arms locally. A world where we fool ouselves into thinking that "globalization" only has a positive side.

    Tribal slaughter will be the path to "peace" in this century. And our attempts to stall or to demand from them what even Europeans couldn't do will only make matters worse and far more deadlier for the American troop that will be engaged for one reason or another.

    It's time to leave Iraq, let them do what they are destined to do, and deny them their refusals to accept cultural and civilizational responsibility for themselves. Our job is finished. We rid them of "our" dictator and gave them opportunity. And considering that the Cold War days of dropping in another dictator to maintain "stability" (which continues to be a UN prescription for the world's regions) is our past and not our present nor is it our future, this was all we were ever going to be able to do with Iraq.

    What they do from here will say more about this region and its people than it does for American might.
    Last edited by MSgt; 08-23-09 at 02:01 AM.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If we leave, without completing the mission, we'll have to go right back. Just like we did in 2003 when we went back to Iraq after leaving things half finished in 91. Just like we went back to Afghanistan after ****ing up the end game in the 80's.
    I agree. Finish what we started. Dem's and GOP voted for the war, we went as a nation, we need to stomach it and stay.

    One point you failed to make was that every time we pull out from a fight, it continues to weaken our position in the world.
    It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by TBone View Post
    I agree. Finish what we started. Dem's and GOP voted for the war, we went as a nation, we need to stomach it and stay.

    One point you failed to make was that every time we pull out from a fight, it continues to weaken our position in the world.
    So how do we "win"?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    It doesn't matter when we pull out. There will be slaughter. And there is a very real good reason for it.

    Throughout history, "peace" has always come between tribes only after one slaughters enough of the other. We find ourselves audience to a world made wrong by European colonialism. A world where tribes were forced together or divided and then later maintained by America and the U.S.S.R. throughout the Cold War.

    Somalia? Tribes.

    Bosnia? Tribal slaughter merely placed on pause by the west until it is abe to complete what it started.

    Iraq? It's only a matter of time before the tribes clean house. The Sunni hate the Shia and they hate the Kurds enough to murder and to commit genocide.

    Pakistan? Merely a matter of time.

    We have fooled ourselves into thinking that just because we are civil in our day to day encounters within our local western borders that the rest of the world wasn't placed on pause throughout the 20th century. The first half of the 20th century was centered and focused on European tribal conflict. The last half saw the world's tribes maintained or contained by either America's inherited or designed dictator or the Soviet's inherited or designed dictator. If the tribes of Europe saw themselves important enough to drag the world into global chaos twice, then how have we designed for ourselves such a comfortable ignorance as to not identify a post Cold War world where the oppressed and repressed tribes of the third world are being set free? A world where neighbors hold nuclear arms... or worse...contain nuclear arms locally. A world where we fool ouselves into thinking that "globalization" only has a positive side.

    Tribal slaughter will be the path to "peace" in this century. And our attempts to stall or to demand from them what even Europeans couldn't do will only make matters worse and far more deadlier for the American troop that will be engaged for one reason or another.

    It's time to leave Iraq, let them do what they are destined to do, and deny them their refusals to accept cultural and civilizational responsibility for themselves. Our job is finished. We rid them of "our" dictator and gave them opportunity. And considering that the Cold War days of dropping in another dictator to maintain "stability" (which continues to be a UN prescription for the world's regions) is our past and not our present nor is it our future, this was all we were ever going to be able to do with Iraq.

    What they do from here will say more about this region and its people than it does for American might.
    so tehy will be killing each other instead of us?
    and with a lot of htem dying, guess that helps those who think the planet is over crowded

    win win

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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