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Thread: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Saddam's regime had killed over 300 thousand people prior to the '03 invasion. There was no evidence that he was going to slack off. His two boys sure as hell weren't interested in curtailing their savagery.
    How many of them where Americans? American was claiming that Iraq was a threat to us on the home front.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    How many of them where Americans? American was claiming that Iraq was a threat to us on the home front.
    I don't think that was his point, but if you want to believe that, then ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad - Times Online


    Gee... wasn't that one of Bush's big concerns, if we leave too soon, the country will get hammered by violence... oh look, PBO rushed out and ... gasp!
    How has Obama "rushed out"? There are still 128,000 US troops in Iraq, and unless I'm mistaken, every move that has been made in Iraq since Obama took office was on the exact timetable planned by Bush.

    I definitely don't think Obama can be blamed for this.

    If people are looking to criticize Obama for something on this issue, wait for the eventual breach of his campaign promise to withdraw all troops within 16 months. There's no way on earth that was ever going to happen.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    How has Obama "rushed out"? There are still 128,000 US troops in Iraq, and unless I'm mistaken, every move that has been made in Iraq since Obama took office was on the exact timetable planned by Bush.

    I definitely don't think Obama can be blamed for this.

    If people are looking to criticize Obama for something on this issue, wait for the eventual breach of his campaign promise to withdraw all troops within 16 months. There's no way on earth that was ever going to happen.
    Plus, at the same time this was Iraq's decision. They've wanted us out for awhile now. We overthrew Saddam's regime and instilled democracy in the area. The least we could do is actually show them that they have the power over their country which we promised them.

    I'm not saying we should back away and take an isolationist stance towards Iraq. Of course, Iraq is still our problem. We should move to the boarders and give more military advisory in the large cities for the Iraqi army. This the United States of America's chance to screw up again, it's Iraq's chance to do well for their country.
    "All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language...No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    How has Obama "rushed out"? There are still 128,000 US troops in Iraq, and unless I'm mistaken, every move that has been made in Iraq since Obama took office was on the exact timetable planned by Bush.

    I definitely don't think Obama can be blamed for this.
    He can't be blamed for the violence, but the increase in violence in Iraq does point to a particular problem with how he's proceeded in regards to both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Afghanistan was supposed to be "the good war", and Iraq was supposed to be "the dumb war." He campaigned on the idea of getting out of Iraq so resources could be devoted to Afghanistan.

    The problem he has is that, increasingly, it appears that he had the two situations inverted. Iraq is "the good war"; Afghanistan is "the dumb war." Iraq is the nation which is--slowly, fitfully, and painfully--proceeding to build itself as a nation; while Afghanistan--not so slowly, but just as fitfully and even more painfully--looks to tear itself apart. Iraq is the nation that could be rebuilt; Afghanistan is the failed state that may never be successfully built. Iraq is the battlefield where Al Qaeda was greatly reduced; Afghanistan is the battlefield where the Taliban are displaying their persistent and growing strength.

    McChrystal wants even more troops and more civilians for Afghanistan, and the Taliban continue to regain strength; the top general in the British Army spoke of troops being in-country for the next forty years.

    So now the President is stuck between a rock and a hard place--he has made great rhetoric committing to Afghanistan, and put a general in charge whose strategic view of things calls for even more troops, at a time when Iraq requires the US to slow down troop withdrawals. That is not a winning political hand for the President--it is not unlike the meatgrinder that consumed Lyndon Johnson's Presidency.

    No, he's not to blame for the violence, or for any delays in US withdrawal from Iraq. He is to blame for not thinking through this exact scenario before running his mouth about both Iraq and Afghanistan. His political strategy has put him foursquare behind a military strategy of not focusing on the winnable conflict while focusing on a potentially unwinnable conflict.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    He can't be blamed for the violence, but the increase in violence in Iraq does point to a particular problem with how he's proceeded in regards to both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Afghanistan was supposed to be "the good war", and Iraq was supposed to be "the dumb war." He campaigned on the idea of getting out of Iraq so resources could be devoted to Afghanistan.

    The problem he has is that, increasingly, it appears that he had the two situations inverted. Iraq is "the good war"; Afghanistan is "the dumb war." Iraq is the nation which is--slowly, fitfully, and painfully--proceeding to build itself as a nation; while Afghanistan--not so slowly, but just as fitfully and even more painfully--looks to tear itself apart. Iraq is the nation that could be rebuilt; Afghanistan is the failed state that may never be successfully built. Iraq is the battlefield where Al Qaeda was greatly reduced; Afghanistan is the battlefield where the Taliban are displaying their persistent and growing strength.

    McChrystal wants even more troops and more civilians for Afghanistan, and the Taliban continue to regain strength; the top general in the British Army spoke of troops being in-country for the next forty years.

    So now the President is stuck between a rock and a hard place--he has made great rhetoric committing to Afghanistan, and put a general in charge whose strategic view of things calls for even more troops, at a time when Iraq requires the US to slow down troop withdrawals. That is not a winning political hand for the President--it is not unlike the meatgrinder that consumed Lyndon Johnson's Presidency.

    No, he's not to blame for the violence, or for any delays in US withdrawal from Iraq. He is to blame for not thinking through this exact scenario before running his mouth about both Iraq and Afghanistan. His political strategy has put him foursquare behind a military strategy of not focusing on the winnable conflict while focusing on a potentially unwinnable conflict.
    Hopefully, the Afghan elections aren't too fitful/painful for Afghanistan. And for once I can actually say that I agree with you, for the most part.
    "All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language...No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    I did not read all the responces but I do have my thoughts on the matter.

    If we leave tomorrow or 1000 years from now the same things will happen. They really don't want us there. It's not so much that they hate us but are afraid we are never going to leave, I wonder why?.

    We need to leave Iraq now and deal with it now. The vacuum we will have created cannot be avoided now nor ever.

    Lets get our guys out and be prepared to help with humanitarian aid and let them work it out, period.
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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Last I heard we killed 20,000 jihadist in Iraq.... better there than here.
    And I bet that we created most of those Jihadists by going into Iraq in the first place.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottD View Post
    And I bet that we created most of those Jihadists by going into Iraq in the first place.
    That's like saying that the invention of laws against murder created all them murderers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US pullout in doubt after day of slaughter on streets of Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottD View Post
    And I bet that we created most of those Jihadists by going into Iraq in the first place.
    Many of these jihadists were young teenage boys who grew up with a hatred for USA because of our imperialist presence in their countries. My father once told me (not sure about the validity) that al-Qaeda frequently targets teenage boys who were recently dumped by a girl. Apparently the boys feel like they have nothing to live for, and are persuaded to join al-Qaeda to for a suicide bombing. Apparently, the girl was working with al-Qaeda all along as well. Crazy stuff. Inshallah, the violence will stop.
    "All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language...No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne

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