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Thread: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Quote Originally Posted by TBone View Post
    Please show me in the bill where this senerio will take place? This is an assumption that has never been proven.
    This is how all healthcare works - there are a multitude of treatments available for any scenario, but only some are covered. I don't understand why this is controversial.

    Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
    Who said anything about considering illegal immigrants 'Americans'?
    You:

    These foreigners live, work, go to school, pay taxes everyday right along with 'Americans'. We include them in everything we do, but now all of a sudden they don't count when it's politically convenient.
    The Census Bureau says nothing about illegals.
    Are you seriously trying to argue that the 9.73 million uninsured "foreigners" in the census report are all legal immigrants, despite the fact that both of the studies I linked to indicate otherwise?

    The CNS article, along with many others, are using the argument that since President Obama and others use the term uninsured "Americans", rather than the term "people" - the term the census bureau uses - when describing people in the United States without insurance therefore the report breakout that shows that 9.7 million people are "not a citizen" and should be deducted from the total amount of uninsured.

    My point is why are the foreign born not inclusive in the uninsured population of the United States?
    Because it's an out and out lie to say that there are 47 million "uninsured Americans" when a large portion of that number are not Americans. Plain and simple.

    Foreign born (both naturalized and not a citizen) and nativity breakout is used by the bureau in most all studies and cited by just about everyone imaginable.

    When talking about Income and earnings of Americans..."not a citizen" is used.

    When talking about Americans in poverty..."not a citizen" is used.

    When talking about a population of 300 million Americans..."not a citizen" is used.
    Actually, I think that you'd find that most detailed reports clearly distinguish between the poverty rates of "Americans" and the poverty rates of people living in America. The fact that most reporters or people are imprecise in using the terms or describing things doesn't make that any less true.

    Why exclude them from the ranks of uninsured? Political convenience?
    Because they are not Americans. I can't believe that you're arguing that politics are the reason why I'm arguing that they shouldn't be included, when it's so clearly the other way around.

    Let me put it this way - Do you think Obama would ever get up at a podium and say "When you include non-citizens, there are 47 million uninsured Americans."

    Of course the illegal immigration population is estimated, but since your first article gave no figures let's take the second one (Pew's). Their estimate is 11.9 million unauthorized immigrants. 59% or 64% (take your pick) of that figure falls well short of your estimate of 10-12 million.
    So now that you acknowledge that the minimum figure is 7 million, we can move from there. I would argue that Pew's figure of 11.9 million is a significant undercounting, mostly due to the fact that they're basing their growth figures on numbers from 2000, when all indicators are that immigration increased rapidly from there. Bear Stearns produced a report (PDF) that detailed all the reasons for this and which estimated that the number of illegal immigrants is close to 20 million. I would be inclined to say it's closer to 15, but that still puts us back at the 10 million figure.

    Beyond all that, does it really make much of a difference if the number of illegal immigrants included in Obama's "47 million uninsured Americans" number is 7 million or 10 million?

    In the aforementioned earlier discussion you did make a sweeping accusation without exceptions. And no it's not clear that that's the exception that proves the rule.
    And I stand by my assertion that the vast, vast majority of uninsured people earning more than $75k a year are uninsured due to their own actions. I think it's ridiculous to assume otherwise. My apologies for not including the "vast, vast majority" disclaimer in my earlier statement.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 08-22-09 at 07:12 PM.
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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    HR3200




    The article is wrong. The language is there--sugar-coated and glossed over--but it is still there.
    To you and all those who thanked your post, learn english.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And I stand by my assertion that the vast, vast majority of uninsured people earning more than $75k a year are uninsured due to their own actions. I think it's ridiculous to assume otherwise. My apologies for not including the "vast, vast majority" disclaimer in my earlier statement.
    According to your source those making 75K that are uninsured is at 7.8%. For whatever reason they don't have insurance one of which is obviously that it may very well be a single income family with stay at home parent looking after many kids.
    For some regions in the US, making 75K isn't all that much, particularily if the employer doesn't provide insurance then it's even more understandable.
    For singles though, I don't see how 75K isn't enough.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Because it's an out and out lie to say that there are 47 million "uninsured Americans" when a large portion of that number are not Americans. Plain and simple.
    Alright, drop 10million illegal immigrants, somehow 37million then just becomes fine and dandy?
    As you had noted given that it really shouldn't matter than what is the argument you're making?

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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    Alright, drop 10million illegal immigrants, somehow 37million then just becomes fine and dandy?
    As you had noted given that it really shouldn't matter than what is the argument you're making?
    Reread this thread and link me to where I said anything like that.

    I thought I made my position fairly clear when I said:

    That doesn't mean that it's not still an important issue, but it's important that all sides are coming from the same place.
    My problem is with people lying and using false and misleading numbers to try to scare the public into supporting something.
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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Reread this thread and link me to where I said anything like that.

    I thought I made my position fairly clear when I said:
    I even pointed out that you made a note of that. I lurked through the thread and found your pointing out a difference of 10million to be immaterial to the broader scope of the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    My problem is with people lying and using false and misleading numbers to try to scare the public into supporting something.
    Should they be more politically correct and use 37million to get the factual basis across? Is it any different be it 47 or 37million? I think the underlying fact that there are a hella lot of people that can not afford insurance and the fact that there are a hella lot of people that have insurnace and still can't afford the co-pay or they are underinsured in itself makes any 10million figure completely immaterial.
    I can agree with the philisophical principal of being as accurate and factual as one knows. However 10 million in the case in which you bring up is a distraction to the bigger and far more pressing problem that a hella lot more people are ****ed - particularily the underinsured.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Quote Originally Posted by jfuh View Post
    I even pointed out that you made a note of that. I lurked through the thread and found your pointing out a difference of 10million to be immaterial to the broader scope of the facts.


    Should they be more politically correct and use 37million to get the factual basis across? Is it any different be it 47 or 37million? I think the underlying fact that there are a hella lot of people that can not afford insurance and the fact that there are a hella lot of people that have insurnace and still can't afford the co-pay or they are underinsured in itself makes any 10million figure completely immaterial.
    I can agree with the philisophical principal of being as accurate and factual as one knows. However 10 million in the case in which you bring up is a distraction to the bigger and far more pressing problem that a hella lot more people are ****ed - particularily the underinsured.
    It doesn't mean much in the sense that anyone who is genuinely concerned about the plight of the uninsured will probably not have their minds changed by this, but it does mean quite a lot in terms of how the debate is framed. It's very important to come at these issues from an accurate perspective, for lots of reasons. If the total bill is going to cost $1T, it kind of matters a lil bit if the public assumes that's going to cover 47m Americans or 37m Americans.

    If Bush were playing down the threat from global warming by saying it was only going to rise 2 degrees over 100 years when he knew that it was actually going to rise 3, or if he had said that he was sending 100k troops to Iraq when he knew that he was actually sending 150k, I'm sure that people would (rightly) argue that he should stop misinforming the public.

    I'm still not sure why I have to defend my position that the president should not use blatantly false numbers to gin up support for one of his policy proposals. I think that if the roles were reversed, you certainly wouldn't be calling this a "philosophical" thing.
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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Repulibcans proposed amendments that would prevent rationing and stop illegal immigrants from possibly receiving healthcare. These amendments were voted down. Can someone explain to me why they would do this? Unless there is a loophole in the bill that Democrats don't want to close I don't see why these precautionary amendments wouldn't be passed...

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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by BWG
    Who said anything about considering illegal immigrants 'Americans'?
    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    You:
    Quote Originally Posted by BWG
    These foreigners live, work, go to school, pay taxes everyday right along with 'Americans'. We include them in everything we do, but now all of a sudden they don't count when it's politically convenient.
    Since when did the term foreigners come to mean illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    Are you seriously trying to argue that the 9.73 million uninsured "foreigners" in the census report are all legal immigrants, despite the fact that both of the studies I linked to indicate otherwise?
    Are you seriously trying to interject other studies involving illegal immigrants into the census report that many people refer to?

    As lazy, sloppy and disingenuous as Ms. Seymour's article is, even she doesn't refer to the immigrants noted in the census bureau report as illegals.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    Because it's an out and out lie to say that there are 47 million "uninsured Americans" when a large portion of that number are not Americans. Plain and simple.
    [...]
    Actually, I think that you'd find that most detailed reports clearly distinguish between the poverty rates of "Americans" and the poverty rates of people living in America. The fact that most reporters or people are imprecise in using the terms or describing things doesn't make that any less true.
    It's not a lie when people commonly use the term Americans interchangeably with the term People that the census bureau uses in their reports. That's why I gave some examples of the way people use the term Americanswhen talking about people that include foreigners in other census reports.
    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    Because they are not Americans. I can't believe that you're arguing that politics are the reason why I'm arguing that they shouldn't be included, when it's so clearly the other way around.
    Clearly people are using the census report as the source for uninsured people in the United States, the fact that the term Americans is used interchangably with the census use of the term People is seized upon by some people to discount the number of uninsured people in this country to support their political agenda.
    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    Let me put it this way - Do you think Obama would ever get up at a podium and say "When you include non-citizens, there are 47 million uninsured Americans."
    Do you think, when people are referring to the population of the United States say - We have a population of 280 million plus 20 million non-citizens.

    I don't think so, but I have heard the population referred to many times as '300 million Americans'

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    So now that you acknowledge that the minimum figure is 7 million, we can move from there. I would argue that Pew's figure of 11.9 million is a significant undercounting, mostly due to the fact that they're basing their growth figures on numbers from 2000, when all indicators are that immigration increased rapidly from there. Bear Stearns produced a report (PDF) that detailed all the reasons for this and which estimated that the number of illegal immigrants is close to 20 million. I would be inclined to say it's closer to 15, but that still puts us back at the 10 million figure.

    Beyond all that, does it really make much of a difference if the number of illegal immigrants included in Obama's "47 million uninsured Americans" number is 7 million or 10 million?
    The only reason I even acknowledged the illegal estimations was to show that they don't fit the census report. You cite 20 million. The census bureau's breakdown of the population of the United States include 21 million non-citizens.

    So by your reasoning - that is that the census report includes the illegals - that would only leave 1 million legal immigrants from around world, from Asia, Europe, Africa, Latin America or North America living in the United States.

    You claim that there are 10 million uninsured illegals, but the census report states that there are only 9.7 million uninsured non-citizens. That's less than the estimated uninsured illegals and we haven't even begun to count all the uninsured immigrants from around the world.

    The estimated illegal figures don't fit the census report.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    And I stand by my assertion that the vast, vast majority of uninsured people earning more than $75k a year are uninsured due to their own actions. I think it's ridiculous to assume otherwise. My apologies for not including the "vast, vast majority" disclaimer in my earlier statement.
    I don't doubt that you do stand by your assertions, that doesn't take away from lazy, sloppy articles written by someone (and referred to over and over) that just took figures from the census report and made a sweeping declaration, with out any type of investigation into why they are uninsured...
    Quote Originally Posted by Julia A. Seymour article
    But according to the same Census report, there are 8.3 million uninsured people who make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year and 8.74 million who make more than $75,000 a year. That’s roughly 17 million people who ought to be able to “afford” health insurance because they make substantially more than the median household income of $46,326.
    How many non-citizens are counted in both the non-citizen breakout and the above $50,000 breakout? Are some being brushed aside multiple times?
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

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    Re: FACT CHECK: Health overhaul myths taking root

    Fear & lies always sell more soap than the simple, undramatic truth.

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