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Thread: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Those deaths were caused by the cartels, not by interdiction. If were to interdict more product flow and kill more cartel operators, the deaths would go down dramatically. The cartels operate with impunity and that's why the death rate is so high.
    The French and then the US attempted a similar strategy in Southeast Asia. It did not work out so well then either.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Countries around the world have made drugs illegal. There's a good reason for that. They've all figured out that legalized dope isn't a good idea.
    Actually... they've made drugs illegal mostly because we've applied tremendous economic and diplomatic pressure upon them to do so. In other words, their failed drug policies were adopted mostly in response to ours. Mexico recently tried legalization and was coerced out of it by our State Department.

    It's bad policy. After all, I can make gin and beer in my bathtub, too.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The French and then the US attempted a similar strategy in Southeast Asia. It did not work out so well then either.
    Apples and oranges and vests have no sleeves. However, the US did succeed in beating down the enemy in Vietnam. Worked well there, probably will work well here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Actually... they've made drugs illegal mostly because we've applied tremendous economic and diplomatic pressure upon them to do so. In other words, their failed drug policies were adopted mostly in response to ours. Mexico recently tried legalization and was coerced out of it by our State Department.
    In some cases that true, but not all. Even the Netherlands is starting to tighten drug laws, because they're seeing the toll it's taking on the system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Apples and oranges and vests have no sleeves. However, the US did succeed in beating down the enemy in Vietnam. Worked well there, probably will work well here.
    Some of my friends who fought in Vietnam might disagree with you to some degree.


    In some cases that true, but not all. Even the Netherlands is starting to tighten drug laws, because they're seeing the toll it's taking on the system.
    The netherlands is a poor example, because they've decriminalized possession and use, but haven't legalized production and sales. They left the black market in place.

    Also, legalization would work better as part of a generally more libertarian approach to government... let people make their choices and then live with the consequences (or die with them)...don't subsidize taking care of them after they've ruined themselves with drug abuse. In other words, cut most or all the social programs that help enable people to lay around doing drugs instead of working (ie welfare), and stop curing them for "free" (at taxpayer expense) when they ruin their health with meth (socialized medicine).
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-19-09 at 09:47 PM.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post

    In some cases that true, but not all. Even the Netherlands is starting to tighten drug laws, because they're seeing the toll it's taking on the system.
    The laws on the books in the Netherlands have not changed (local ordinances excluded). It has always been illegal to possess marijuana, and coffeshops are technically running illegal operations.

    The Dutch have stated a shift in policy and they are making life harder on coffeeshop owners, but this is not because they are seeing the toll it is taking on their system, but rather as a result from pressures from the EU and the U.S. regarding their policy, and a more conservative government being in control.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Some of my friends who fought in Vietnam might disagree with you to some degree.
    I bet they wouldn't disagree that we defeated the North Vietnamese on the battlefield.


    The netherlands is a poor example, because they've decriminalized possession and use, but haven't legalized production and sales. They left the black market in place.
    Mushrooms have been outlawed in the Netherlands, so that's not entirely accurate.


    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    The laws on the books in the Netherlands have not changed (local ordinances excluded). It has always been illegal to possess marijuana, and coffeshops are technically running illegal operations.

    The Dutch have stated a shift in policy and they are making life harder on coffeeshop owners, but this is not because they are seeing the toll it is taking on their system, but rather as a result from pressures from the EU and the U.S. regarding their policy, and a more conservative government being in control.

    Whether it's legal, or illegal but not enforced is irrelevant. It's becoming more and more obvious to the Dutch the open drug use isn't a good idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Mushrooms have been outlawed in the Netherlands, so that's not entirely accurate.
    Pressure from the French after a French kid killed himself.. That is a couple of years ago.


    Whether it's legal, or illegal but not enforced is irrelevant. It's becoming more and more obvious to the Dutch the open drug use isn't a good idea.
    I don't see it as that. It is becoming more obvious to the Dutch that in order to be a player in the EU they have to make concessions and token gestures.

    If it were not for the Single Convention it would be legalized.. international pressures have shaped their drug policy, although they bent towards leniency as far as they could under those pressures.
    Last edited by marduc; 08-19-09 at 10:18 PM.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How do control something that can be produced in your bathroom, with everyday house hold chemicals? Or grown in a box, in your closet?

    To do that, you would have to make the possession of the ingedients illegal, thereby putting yourself back to square one.

    Illegal alcohol and cigarettes are multi-million dollar industries in the United States. The cartels aren't going to give up all that money and power just because their product is legal.

    Countries around the world have made drugs illegal. There's a good reason for that. They've all figured out that legalized dope isn't a good idea.
    Interesting comparison... alcohol. Have you actually thought this one over though? Were are the Al Capones today... the ones running and gunning their way around?

    Is there money to be made on things that are legal? Sure, so what? But this is really all about economics. About, again, the CONTROL of the Supply. Toyota makes a safer and better car than my neighbor Jim, who has illegal after market parts on his car drag machine in the garage with many missing safety features, and this not street legal. Toyota makes their cars better and sells them for less money too...

    There are illegal rip-off products all over, but what impact do they make? Almost none... almost every person engages in legal buying and selling for almost all of their purchases.

    What power would a Cartel have if they lost billions of dollars? Who would these guys employ as gaurds or chemists? All the best chemists would most likely work for a legit company where they would not have to worry about being killed or arrested.

    Is pot going to be grown by some people around... sure. So what? It is still a fine or whatever, and there will still be some enforcement, as there is with boot-leggers, but is it even in the same ball park as a Cartel? Hell, is it even the same sport any longer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I bet they wouldn't disagree that we defeated the North Vietnamese on the battlefield.
    You think that they take that as some kind of concession? "Gee... we won every major battle!" Naw, I bet they would rather have not lost 58,000 people and won the war instead...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Interesting comparison... alcohol. Have you actually thought this one over though? Were are the Al Capones today... the ones running and gunning their way around?

    Is there money to be made on things that are legal? Sure, so what? But this is really all about economics. About, again, the CONTROL of the Supply. Toyota makes a safer and better car than my neighbor Jim, who has illegal after market parts on his car drag machine in the garage with many missing safety features, and this not street legal. Toyota makes their cars better and sells them for less money too...

    There are illegal rip-off products all over, but what impact do they make? Almost none... almost every person engages in legal buying and selling for almost all of their purchases.

    What power would a Cartel have if they lost billions of dollars? Who would these guys employ as gaurds or chemists? All the best chemists would most likely work for a legit company where they would not have to worry about being killed or arrested.

    Is pot going to be grown by some people around... sure. So what? It is still a fine or whatever, and there will still be some enforcement, as there is with boot-leggers, but is it even in the same ball park as a Cartel? Hell, is it even the same sport any longer?
    Legalizing alcohol put the Mafia out of business? Legalizing alcohol put an end the illegal liquir business? The answer is a resounding, no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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