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Thread: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Obviously, there haven't been enough killed. We need to kill more. Sooner, ot later, people won't want to be drug runners because it's too dangerous. It's called, "deterrence".
    There's a certain point at which you have to acknowledge that killing more people is doing more harm than the problem which you are killing them to solve. There are only so many people in society, and if you start killing them all you start missing the point of protecting the society from them.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The demand is going to go down because drugs are legal? I'm doubting that.
    This is not about demand, but about control...

    If the government has control of the product, if the government opens the product up to Capitalism and controls the taxing and distribution as they do with other legal orginizations that produce and sell prescription drugs, then the Cartels lose their money, and hence their power and control and most importantly, their ability to disrupt the goverment of Mexico or Columbia.
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  3. #53
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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The demand is going to go down because drugs are legal? I'm doubting that.


    When you factor in how much the cartels have penetrated the Mexican government, I'm betting that Mexico wouldn't exactly follow suit.
    I did not claim the demand would go down; however if drugs were legal we would NOT be attaining our supply from the cartels.

    The cartels power and profit motive would be gone, their game would be up. Mexico only has a drug problem by proxy because it is feeding ours.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Because there hasn't been enough interdiction. We need to take the gloves off and start scoring some kills.
    How many heads do we need to cut off only to see this hydra sprout 2 in replacement to realize this does not work?


    EDIT: after reading further down the thread I saw your post celticlord, I was not plagiarizing you with the hydra reference honestly!!
    Last edited by marduc; 08-19-09 at 08:37 PM.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Depends on the goal. You are not going to destroy the whole of Mexican drug cartels, so you make it as painful and expensive as possible. You cannot stop any crime entirely, but that does not mean you should legalize everything.
    The problem is the strategy is making interdiction more painful and more expensive for us. What was the total number of homicides in I believe it was Guadalajara last year? 4,500 or something? And this year it will be worse?

    Who's feeling the pain here? And who's going to feel the pain if we just ramp up more interdiction?

    The interdiction strategy does not seem to be working. It may very well destroy the Mexican government--and if that happens, if Calderon loses all control over northern Mexico, what interdiction strategy do we propose then? Invade Mexico?

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    There's a certain point at which you have to acknowledge that killing more people is doing more harm than the problem which you are killing them to solve. There are only so many people in society, and if you start killing them all you start missing the point of protecting the society from them.
    Well, let's try it and if doesn't work, we can do something else. One thing's for sure, getting captured by the Coast Gaurd, then deported back to your home country isn't much of a deterrent for drug runners.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    This is not about demand, but about control...

    If the government has control of the product, if the government opens the product up to Capitalism and controls the taxing and distribution as they do with other legal orginizations that produce and sell prescription drugs, then the Cartels lose their money, and hence their power and control and most importantly, their ability to disrupt the goverment of Mexico or Columbia.
    How do control something that can be produced in your bathroom, with everyday house hold chemicals? Or grown in a box, in your closet?

    To do that, you would have to make the possession of the ingedients illegal, thereby putting yourself back to square one.

    Illegal alcohol and cigarettes are multi-million dollar industries in the United States. The cartels aren't going to give up all that money and power just because their product is legal.

    Countries around the world have made drugs illegal. There's a good reason for that. They've all figured out that legalized dope isn't a good idea.




    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    I did not claim the demand would go down; however if drugs were legal we would NOT be attaining our supply from the cartels.
    Yes we would! They're the ones with the product!...LOL!!!
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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The problem is the strategy is making interdiction more painful and more expensive for us. What was the total number of homicides in I believe it was Guadalajara last year? 4,500 or something? And this year it will be worse?

    Who's feeling the pain here? And who's going to feel the pain if we just ramp up more interdiction?

    The interdiction strategy does not seem to be working. It may very well destroy the Mexican government--and if that happens, if Calderon loses all control over northern Mexico, what interdiction strategy do we propose then? Invade Mexico?
    But there are limited options as to what to do. Legalizing drugs is a nonstarter, won't happen this decade, probably not next. Throwing up our hands and doing nothing isn't going to work either. Giving Calderon what support we can is about all we can do.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The problem is the strategy is making interdiction more painful and more expensive for us. What was the total number of homicides in I believe it was Guadalajara last year? 4,500 or something? And this year it will be worse?

    Who's feeling the pain here? And who's going to feel the pain if we just ramp up more interdiction?

    The interdiction strategy does not seem to be working. It may very well destroy the Mexican government--and if that happens, if Calderon loses all control over northern Mexico, what interdiction strategy do we propose then? Invade Mexico?
    Those deaths were caused by the cartels, not by interdiction. If were to interdict more product flow and kill more cartel operators, the deaths would go down dramatically. The cartels operate with impunity and that's why the death rate is so high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Well, let's try it and if doesn't work, we can do something else. One thing's for sure, getting captured by the Coast Gaurd, then deported back to your home country isn't much of a deterrent for drug runners.
    Nothing is, they are willing to die for their cash. Why if they are not afraid of getting killed in wars with each other do you think they would be afraid of getting killed by us? How many thousands have been killed?? yet there are plnety still there, still killing.


    How do control something that can be produced in your bathroom, with everyday house hold chemicals? Or grown in a box, in your closet?

    To do that, you would have to make the possession of the ingedients illegal, thereby putting yourself back to square one.

    Illegal alcohol and cigarettes are multi-million dollar industries in the United States. The cartels aren't going to give up all that money and power just because their product is legal.
    multi million versus multi billion HUGE difference. One of scale, on this scale it is more readily tackled and dealt with.

    How rampant is bootleg moonshine? is it sold in every middle school in this country?

    Countries around the world have made drugs illegal. There's a good reason for that. They've all figured out that legalized dope isn't a good idea.
    No, WE (the U.S) decided this and shoved it down the rest of the worlds throat. We can also decide that prohibition is a horrible and untenable proposition as well.






    Yes we would! They're the ones with the product!...LOL!!!
    This was true with Organized crime during prohibition, how long did their control and supply chain last afterwards?

    You make it sound like it is impossible to produce without them.

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    Re: "It's a War": Mexico Under Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Those deaths were caused by the cartels, not by interdiction. If were to interdict more product flow and kill more cartel operators, the deaths would go down dramatically. The cartels operate with impunity and that's why the death rate is so high.
    We have been spending billions annually in interdiction for 40 years+ now.. it does not work!

    But hey the key to winning a game of whack a mole is a bigger club i suppose, maybe 400 billion a year instead of 40 billion??

    There will still be demand, it will still get in, it will still be a problem, only now the risk V. reward is even more skewed, meaning that the most ruthless, most shrewd, and most violent will rise to the top of this new dogpile.

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