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Thread: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

  1. #11
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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    It shows that you can bomb a country during 5 years, kill its dictator, kill thousands of terrorists and do whatever you want, you can't impose democracy on people who have never had any experience with democracy.

    The day they want a democracy, they'll make their own revolution.



    You forgot, "tell the enemy we are leaving in 18 months", then ignore Iraq.....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Your point was a poor one.

    A terrorist attack in a fledgling nation does not prove the war is not won, that strains credibility, logic, and fact. Is Israel currently at war with anyone? Not to my knowledge, yet there's terrorist attacks often. Was the U.S. at war with someone during the U.S.S. Cole or 9/11?

    Well, wait, I heard the Taliban may've got some financing from people in Britian....and we previously were at war with Britian.....**** folks, sorry, my bad, we're no longer Americans, apparently based on the World according to Bub we're still fighting the Revolutionary War. Damn, so much for thinking I was an American all these years.

    Yeah, sorry Bub, your logic is horrible there and just doesn't stand up to reason and that was only one of the issues with your inane post.
    It depends on what you call "victory"! The objectives of this war weren't very clear, so
    - if the goal was to remove Saddam Hussein, then yes, it's a victory
    - if the goal was to make the USA safer, yes, now we're sure that Iraq doesn't have WMD's, but the invasion made Iran build its own WMD's
    - if the goal was to replace a dictatorship by a democracy, yes, there have been elections, but I'm not sure Iraq will stay democratic a long time after the US troop withdraw
    - if the goal was to pacify Iraq, then I don't think it's a victory, since there are massive terrorist attacks nearly every month





    Next was you trying to capitalize on 5 year old quote that had been acknowledged was too early to have been stated. Woo! Congratulations! You told us something we knew 4 years ago, that the "Mission Accomplished" statement was too early. Wow, how astute of you. Great job. We would've all missed that.

    However, currently, the Presidents statements there would be correct. We are out of the period of major combat operation. There majority of the country is far more at rest then it was during the height of the war, the amount of attacks happening are lower, and far more of the country is controlled. It is much closer to a "police action" at the moment than any kind of "war" at the moment. So while yes, the President's statement was premature...something known by most long before your great revelation...your attempt to use it in this context is rather poor since now we are most assuredly outside of the period of "major combat operation".
    Did you know that 98% of the casualties in the Iraq war have occured after the end of the "height of the war"?



    Your third rather erronious notion was droning on that this somehow "shows" that the attempt in Iraq was a failure and that the people don't want an "imposed" democracy. However, repeated heavy election turnout, such as in February where voter turnout was beyond expectations with little violence seems to counter this notion that its simply "imposed" on them, that they don't want it, and a single idiot blowing himself up somehow proves that it can't work.

    No, Bub, what it shows is that some fringe lunatics can become so deluded and manipulated by those above them to blow themselves up to kill their countrymen, or in many cases non-countrymen, in hopes of intimidating them away from something they want.
    Do you really think I'm the only one saying that democracy won't work in Iraq? Do you know that there are many factors favorizing democracy, and that none of them is present in Iraq?

    As for the attacks, you're talking about this attack as if it was a single and isolated event that is not so important, while according to some sources there are over 100 victims and that these attacks occur regularly? Of course there are less attacks than in 2007, but do you think things will calm down when the US troops withdraw?!

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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quote Originally Posted by JW Frogen View Post

    Democracy is a process, it has no pre conceived ideology, it only works if the people involved participate; democracy can not be imposed because it is the will of the people of that place, culture and time.
    Yes and the people of that culture have never had prior experience with a real democracy so it's not gonna work

    + the people of this place are divided, so it's not gonna work neither

    + the people of that place rely upon oil, they do not have any middle class, so it's not gonna work




    That so many on the Left no longer believe other people should decide their own destiny as we do, well, this is a form of imperialism the Left is complacent in, yet so self righteously blind they can not recognize.
    what are you talking about? That does not make any sense

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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quite the argument going here. I think the escalation in violence is unfortunate. However, all knew that there would be pains when the U.S. troops began pulling-out. Many assert that Iraq can not stand on its own, but I look at it like a kid learning to ride a bike. If you never let go of the seat, the child will never learn to ride on his/her own. Same in Iraq. If the government does not learn to control it's own territory, it never will. I am not saying the U.S. should totally give-up on Iraq, but just as the parent, be there in case the child is severely injured, so we should be for our fledgling democracy.

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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    It shows that you can bomb a country during 5 years, kill its dictator, kill thousands of terrorists and do whatever you want, you can't impose democracy on people who have never had any experience with democracy.

    The day they want a democracy, they'll make their own revolution.
    Good day for your side, eh?


    .

  6. #16
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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Good day for your side, eh?


    .
    And where exactly did I say that I was against the idea of democracy in Iraq? I just said it's not likely to happen.

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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    And where exactly did I say that I was against the idea of democracy in Iraq? I just said it's not likely to happen.
    You argument is a strong one. The culture of the Middle East is one that strongly runs counter to "Western-style democracy," in every way. It is a tribal culture and very, very patriarchal, and that is why nothing but monarchs and tyrants have been successful there. The factionalism is a major roadblock to the success of Iraq, and that is one reason I agreed with Biden back in 2004, when he argued that Iraq should be made into a federal model with states for each of the sects. That would have allowed for a unified Iraq, while helping ease some of the tensions between factions. The only hope that I have, is that once the troops are out, Iraqi's will no longer be able to blame the U.S. for the attacks in their country and will then see they must stand-up for themselves, just as many in Pakistan have done against the Taliban.

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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    And where exactly did I say that I was against the idea of democracy in Iraq? I just said it's not likely to happen.
    You sounded pretty giddy about the bombings. Your post sounded like a bunch of people being killed is of little consequence if it proves you were right all along.


    .

  9. #19
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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    You sounded pretty giddy about the bombings. Your post sounded like a bunch of people being killed is of little consequence if it proves you were right all along.


    .
    Ah sorry, didn't want to sound like that

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    Re: Series of Blasts in Baghdad Kill 58, Injure 300

    Sssshhhhhhhhh, it's health care. We've successfully forgotten about Iraq so that we're not reminded that somehow we're still there and that it's still ****ed.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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