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Thread: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Their validity would be supplemented if they proposed some viable alternatives.
    They have proposed alternatives, in both the House and the Senate. Besides the fact that the majority party refuses to discuss them, how is the legislation not viable?

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Their validity would be supplemented if they proposed some viable alternatives. The Republican Party could easily exploit the diversity of the Democratic Party to achieve reforms more palpable to their base. But it operates under the notion that any good which originates from a Democrat-run Congress is hurtful to its own election prospects. So, it derails everything it can instead.
    Hypo:

    Let's say you happen to like your local bar. It's a bit of a dive and some people in town are unhappy with it, but you're largely content with the way it's run. Now imagine that a group of people get together and propose that the bar be converted into an upscale club with bottle service and B&T trash. You don't like that idea, and would much prefer that things remain the way they are. You acknowledge that there are things that could be improved from the status quo, but you would much prefer what you have now to this new type of bar.

    Now, would you consider yourself to be a member of the "party of no" or someone who was totally devoid of ideas? Or would you consider yourself to be someone who simply disagreed with the proposed changes?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    bull

    the republican party for the first 6 months of this disastrous presidency has done NOTHING but watch as democratic leadership has piece by piece destroyed its own party

    man up and take responsiblity

    you were given 60 senators for a reason
    You speak such few words and yet there is so much wrong about them.

    The Republican Party has done more than watch. They are continually attempting to rally public opinion against every single proposal that comes out of the White House, going to great lengths to criticize (on speculative or blatantly false grounds) the weaknesses of the policies. There is really no Democrat-originating act or event, no matter how minor, that they don't have a lot of bad words to direct toward.

    The Democratic Party is anything but destroyed, although I wouldn't expect a Republican to understand that because they are used to a party which demands consensus in its ranks. Diversity of opinion and argument are the order of the day in the Democratic Party.

    I don't have to "man up and take responsibility" until Republicans "man up and take responsibility" for accruing 8 trillion of our 12 trillion debt, not even including interest. By the law of fiscal conservatism, they ought to be exiled from the land. The debt Republicans are so scared about is almost exclusively the fruit of their own labor. Clinton didn't do it and Obama will have to spend 2 trillion dollars every year of his first term to even begin matching it.

    Hypo:

    Let's say you happen to like your local bar. It's a bit of a dive and some people in town are unhappy with it, but you're largely content with the way it's run. Now imagine that a group of people get together and propose that the bar be converted into an upscale club with bottle service and B&T trash. You don't like that idea, and would much prefer that things remain the way they are. You acknowledge that there are things that could be improved from the status quo, but you would much prefer what you have now to this new type of bar.

    Now, would you consider yourself to be a member of the "party of no" or someone who was totally devoid of ideas? Or would you consider yourself to be someone who simply disagreed with the proposed changes?
    Disanalogy because the Republican Party has both a greater obligation to engage in policy than a bar patron and a greater capability. Also, our status quo isn't comparable to a run down bar -- more like a building that's in the process of collapsing on itself.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 08-19-09 at 02:18 AM.

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    You speak such few words and yet there is so much wrong about them.

    The Republican Party has done more than watch. They are continually attempting to rally public opinion against every single proposal that comes out of the White House, going to great lengths to criticize (on speculative or blatantly false grounds) the weaknesses of the policies. There is really no Democrat-originating act or event, no matter how minor, that they don't have a lot of bad words to direct toward.

    The Democratic Party is anything but destroyed, although I wouldn't expect a Republican to understand that because they are used to a party which demands consensus in its ranks. Diversity of opinion and argument are the order of the day in the Democratic Party.

    I don't have to "man up and take responsibility" until Republicans "man up and take responsibility" for accruing 8 trillion of our 12 trillion debt, not even including interest. By the law of fiscal conservatism, they ought to be exiled from the land. The debt Republicans are so scared about is almost exclusively the fruit of their own labor. Clinton didn't do it and Obama will have to spend 2 trillion dollars every year of his first term to even begin matching it.
    attempting to rally public opinion---LOLOL!

    it's called P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S

    speculative and blatantly false grounds---why, you POOR little thing!

    LOLOL!

    imagine!

    bad words!

    towards EVERY democrat event?!

    oh, MY!

    why, that DOES sound rather unFAIR!

    we already took full responsiblity---november 4

    sixty BLUE senators

    a majority of 79 in the house

    your super historical and exciting presidency

    you silly

    LOLOL!
    Last edited by The Prof; 08-19-09 at 02:21 AM.

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    attempting to rally public opinion---LOLOL!

    it's called P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S

    speculative and blatantly false grounds---why, you POOR little thing!

    LOLOL!

    imagine!

    bad words!

    towards EVERY democrat event?!

    oh, MY!

    why, that DOES sound rather unFAIR!

    we already took full responsiblity---november 4

    sixty BLUE senators

    a majority of 79 in the house

    your super historical and exciting presidency

    you silly

    LOLOL!
    There must be an argument in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

    If you want to compare the depth and abundance of Democratic criticism of Republican events in the last couple decades, you'll lose. They Republicans are far less civil and exercise far less restraint. And while that is functional politics, it is not good politics or a virtue. Simply put, the Republicans are better rhetoricians -- which is how they pissed in the public's eye and jacked up the debt between 9-10 trillion (including interest) while amazingly retaining their reputation as a party of fiscal responsibility among their core base and some moderates. They are THAT good at sophistry.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 08-19-09 at 02:36 AM.

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Disanalogy because the Republican Party has both a greater obligation to engage in policy than a bar patron and a greater capability.
    They have an obligation to go along with negotiations on a proposal they oppose?

    Let's pretend it's 2005 and the GOP is trying to gin up support for an invasion of Russia. If the Democrats flat-out opposed that proposal, would they be the "party of no"? Would you accuse them of "refusing to engage in policy" unless they proposed a half-measure, like invading Mexico?

    It's completely legitimate for a party to say "this is a bad proposal and we do not support it."

    (This of course ignores the fact that the Republicans have proposed changes, but I don't want to distract from your already flawed argument by getting into this.)

    Also, our status quo isn't comparable to a run down bar -- more like a building that's in the process of collapsing on itself.
    You do realize that this is merely your opinion and that there are those who might disagree, right?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    There must be an argument in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

    If you want to compare the depth and abundance of Democratic criticism of Republican events in the last couple decades, you'll lose. They Republicans are far less civil and exercise far less restraint. And while that is functional politics, it is not good politics or a virtue. Simply put, the Republicans are better rhetoricians -- which is how they pissed in the public's eye and jacked up the debt between 9-10 trillion (including interest) while amazingly retaining their reputation as a party of fiscal responsibility among their core base and some moderates. They are THAT good at sophistry.
    no argument, why argue

    the republicans are an ant

    the dems are a giant

    fix this economy or you're dead

    no excuses

    actually, after all the political capital expended in the field by this IDIOT president, fix the economy AND get a BIG and MEANINGFUL health care, or you're dead

    we, in the meantime, will watch

    and one more thing: NO!

    we sign on the dotted line of opposition, unambiguously

    your ball

    good luck

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    no argument, why argue

    the republicans are an ant

    the dems are a giant

    fix this economy or you're dead

    no excuses

    actually, after all the political capital expended in the field by this IDIOT president, fix the economy AND get a BIG and MEANINGFUL health care, or you're dead

    we, in the meantime, will watch

    and one more thing: NO!

    we sign on the dotted line of opposition, unambiguously

    your ball

    good luck
    If you're not arguing, then you shouldn't be posting.

    You do realize that this is merely your opinion and that there are those who might disagree, right?
    Then they are wrong. If Medicare/Medicaid trends continue, the budget is broken and the value of the dollar is imperiled. Unshakable fact. If health care premiums continue to rise while wages remain stagnant, the net worth of the middle class will continue to shrink (which will lead to proportional decreases in educational-working opportunities and political influence)). Not as unshakable, but also a pretty safe bet.

    They have an obligation to go along with negotiations on a proposal they oppose?
    Yes, on both the standard measurements of political responsibility; the general republic demands some kind of health care reform (even if about half balk at the public option) and the budget (and therefore the longterm viability of the US government and nation) necessitates it.

    Let's pretend it's 2005 and the GOP is trying to gin up support for an invasion of Russia. If the Democrats flat-out opposed that proposal, would they be the "party of no"? Would you accuse them of "refusing to engage in policy" unless they proposed a half-measure, like invading Mexico?
    Invading Russia or Mexico most likely wouldn't satisfy either public will or, more importantly, serve governing necessity.

    It's completely legitimate for a party to say "this is a bad proposal and we do not support it."
    Only if current health care policies weren't heading for disaster.

    (This of course ignores the fact that the Republicans have proposed changes, but I don't want to distract from your already flawed argument by getting into this.)
    Not really. They have forwarded some ideas (a few of which have been incorporated) and floated an alternative or two, but they haven't engaged with the Democratic Party as the Democratic Party would with them on an issue like, say, Iraq, or No Child Left Behind. If they truly desired to, the Republican Party could have leaped in from the beginning and formed an alliance with the Blue Dog Democrats and some of the Moderate Democrats in both the House and the Senate; the public option would never have even been in discussion had this been the case.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 08-19-09 at 02:47 AM.

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Then they are wrong.
    Oh **** bro, you got me. My bad for thinking that any opinion other than yours might be valid.

    If Medicare/Medicaid trends continue, the budget is broken
    This portion is true. Of course, one might wonder what that has to do with the private insurance industry, which is what this bill is trying to address.

    (We might also ask why some people are so eager to expand government control of healthcare when these programs have highlighted just how terrible it turns out in practice.)

    If health care premiums continue to rise while wages remain stagnant, the net worth of the middle class will continue to shrink (which will lead to proportional decreases in educational-working opportunities and political influence)).
    That's a pretty tenuous thread on which to hang that conclusion.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Analysis: Liberals tired of healthcare compromises [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    If you're not arguing, then you shouldn't be posting.



    Then they are wrong. If Medicare/Medicaid trends continue, the budget is broken and the value of the dollar is imperiled. Unshakable fact. If health care premiums continue to rise while wages remain stagnant, the net worth of the middle class will continue to shrink (which will lead to proportional decreases in educational-working opportunities and political influence)). Not as unshakable, but also a pretty safe bet.
    i'll post if i want to post

    fix this economy

    get meaningful health care

    or you LOSE

    pretty simple

    regardless of medicare trends, unshakable facts and the value of the dollar

    have fun with it, too

    i assume you've been waiting all your life for this

    leadership's a bitch, tho

    opposition is easy, perhaps you recall from a previous life

    we're watching

    cliff

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