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Thread: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I think there are problems aplenty with healthcare, but THIS was not the way to fix it.
    This is a point that needs to be stressed and brought to the fore.

    There is a great deal that is wrong in health care in this country, but a sizable part of what is wrong are the regulations attached--there are too many instances where regulation impedes effective care rather than facilitating it.

    A conversation on health care reform should in fact be a discussion about reforming the regulations, not merely piling on one thousand pages of new regulations atop the status quo.

    • A great many drugs do not (and should not) be restricted to prescription only. The default for any new medicine should be Over The Counter, with prescriptions restricted only to those medicines with narrow therapeutic ranges, inordinate side effects, or capacity for dependency.
    • Insurance markets should encourage insurance companies to enter health care, not restrict or inhibit new market entrance.
    • The tax advantages of health insurance should inure to individuals not to employees
    • All drug trials and research should be fully published and freely accessible to the broader public; one of the many hidden scandals in health care is the number of prescription drugs that are no more efficacious than a placebo, or that have outsized side effects.

    There are many ideas that could be put on the table, were there an honest debate over health care in the first place. The greatest failing of the majority party in Congress, bar none, on the health care debate is the conspicuous lack of intellectually honest debate; from the outset the presumption has been that they knew what was best for all--and are quite shocked when ordinary citizens take exception to that level of arrogance and high-handedness.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I'd be happy to. Check the actual pages if you think this is just fear mongering.

    • Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure
    Yes this auditing is the one that gave my husband pause and put fear in him. I can't make heads or tails of what it means but it does seem like it would inevitably lead to most employers opting out of insuring their employees. Personally I don't think your employer should be tied to your insurance anyway.

    • Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get
    And when you have private insurance they to decide what care you get, right?

    • Page 42: The “Health Choices Commissioner” will decide health benefits for you.
    Same as above. Claims are routinely denied with private coverage.

    • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
    I have to see the exact wording of this. From what I understood you have to "buy" in. Why would illegals and non-citizens be free? Makes no sense.

    • Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
    Non-issue.

    • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
    I don't like that. I would eliminate this from the plan.

    • Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans
    hmm, need to look that up.


    • Page 127: The government will set all wages.
    Private healthcare plans and HMOs set wages too in as much as they have contracts with drs. stating what they will pay and what the dr. will have to accept for procedures and visits. Will drs. have the option to not accept patients on the public option if they don't want to?

    * PG 1018 States give up some of their State Sovereignty.



    Don't get me wrong, I think there are problems aplenty with healthcare, but THIS was not the way to fix it.
    States give up their sovereignty? That's what it says? Again, I have to read through the thing. It's like a book.

    I'm sure there is tons in it I wouldn't agree with. However I would've preferred they argue those bits out vs. just saying forget it, public option off the table.
    Last edited by talloulou; 08-18-09 at 02:20 PM.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Ok I just went to the text of the bill and read page 50. Nowhere on that page does it say anything that would even remotely lead me to believe that non-citizens and illegals are covered for free. Please post the exact text you are referring to with that claim.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Which makes one wonder where you stand on the issue and why.

    The public option would force millions onto it, whether they wanted it or not, and cost the country far more then we can afford... where is the upside to it?

    Force - explain that.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Just read page 65 and fail to see the claim you're asserting for that page too. Taxpayers will subsidize all community organizers and retired union workers.... I don't see that there.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Just read page 245 and while I don't understand all of it there's nothing there that would lead me to believe ALL drs. regardless of specialty are going to be paid the same. Perhaps all will be paid the same for the same procedure code? Makes sense. Private insurers do this. There's a dx book and a procedural code book. All drs. who contract to accept a certain insurance agree to the procedural price sheet. The insurance company tell them this is what we pay for this procedure. That's normal. It's that way now.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I'd be happy to. Check the actual pages if you think this is just fear mongering.


    • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
    Wherever you copied and pasted your list from, they are lying to you. I only needed get this far before I found one I know is a lie.

    Source: Seven Falsehoods About Health Care | FactCheck.org

    quote from actual bill:

    H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

    Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
    In other words, illegal aliens are not covered.

    It is always a good idea to fact check before assuming a source is honest. It too me less than 5 minutes to discover that your list is not nearly accurate.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Wherever you copied and pasted your list from, they are lying to you. I only needed get this far before I found one I know is a lie.

    Source: Seven Falsehoods About Health Care | FactCheck.org

    quote from actual bill:



    In other words, illegal aliens are not covered.

    It is always a good idea to fact check before assuming a source is honest. It too me less than 5 minutes to discover that your list is not nearly accurate.
    Yeah so for 4 of the 5 things I decided to go check out were false.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Yeah so for 4 of the 5 things I decided to go check out were false.
    It makes it really hard to discuss the bill, since people are shouting out so many falsehoods. I find it shameful what politics is like in this country these days. Why cannot politicians try something old fashioned like, you know, honesty.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I'd be happy to. Check the actual pages if you think this is just fear mongering.

    • Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure
    Correct...to ensure the health care policies they provide to their employees meet the minimum mandated standards as adopted by the Health Choices Administration's Commissionor, if any, as recommended by the Health Choices Advisory Committee. The key thing to remember here is once/if the HCR bill is passed as currently outlined, every insurance policy will have to meet minimum standards across the board. This is to ensure everyone receives the same benefits according to which level of health care coverage you accept, not necessarily at the same price. In other words, a basic plan issued in NY must contain the same basic benefit coverage as a plan in CA, but because they are in different regions of the country, the market would still dictate the overall cost of these plans. Right now, a basic plan in one part of the country could be vastly different from an identical plan in another part of the country but at a much higher cost. Sure, it's the free market system, but it also means that somebody might not be receiving adequate care at a fair price.
    • Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get.
    Again, it's a review of health benefits (treatment, medicines, etc.) to ensure every health insurance plan at various levels contain the same level of benefits. Nothing more. Bad benefits get removed; good fbnefits are retained; better benefits are added. What's wrong with that?
    • Page 42: The “Health Choices Commissioner” will decide health benefits for you.
    See above...
    • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
    WRONG!!! NO illegal alien will receive benefits nor credits to be used to offset the purchase of health care under this bill. (See section 246 of the bill.)
    • Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
    This was a proposal, not a mandate. But why would this be a problem considering that everyone is issued a health insurance card from their insurance company anyway?
    • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
    Untrue. The reform bill only recommends that EFT/payment using debit cards be implimented to aid in prompt payment of medical bills, but this in no way implies that the government will have access to anyone's bank accounts.
    • Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans
    Another untruth as the HCR bill does not say that all non-profit organizations will receives gov't subsidizes to help offset the cost of health care; only "non-profit groups/associations". While it could be construed that unions fall under this criteria, it's a bit of a stretch considering unions don't offer health care plans. They may lobby for improved benefits, but they don't offer health insurance.
    • Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
    This is true, and rightly so. If you're going to offer insurance their the public option, you must ensure your health care policies comply with current health care benefit standards.
    • Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange.
    Not true. If you're a private insurance company, your only requirement would be to ensure you offer health care benefits equal to that of the Health Insurance Exchange, as recommended by the Commissionor. But private insurance companyies are NOT required to participate in the HIE. They can, however, provide a health benefits plan alongside what they provide as a private insurer, but they aren't required to provide the public option if what they offer is better.
    • Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services (for illegal aliens).
    Yes, but only insofar as to ensure that members of the Hispanic community can understand the benefit package before them. This does NOT imply that illegal aliens will be afforded health care under the HIE. This country has always provided bi-lingual literature on a variety of topics. Why should this be any different?
    • Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled.
    Yes, but there are a few caveats with this. 1. It's at the state's discretion since Medicaid is a joint-venture between the gov't and the state; and 2. Only if approved by the Commissioner, and only in those instances where the individual is a non-traditional Medicaid individual. (I'm still trying to figure out who these such people are and how they qualify.)
    • Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No “judicial review” is permitted against the government monopoly.
    I'll have to get back to you on that one. I don't think you're quoating the issue quite right.
    • Page 127: The government will set all wages.
    Correct, for the HIE only.
    • Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan.
    Only if they don't offer private insurance.
    • Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
    You got it part-right. The bill would allow part-time employees to receive health care coverage through the HIE, but the employers would NOT be flipping the bill for said coverage. The cost would still come out of the employee's pocket. Now, there is a provision that says that the small-business employeer could contribute to the HIE in lieu of paying towards an employee's health care, but that doesn't mean that the employer flips the bill entirely. Regardless, major companies are already paying a substaintial portion of their employee's health insurance. What's the difference here?
    • Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.
    Correct. Every company does this already per the 1986 IRS law.
    • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
    See above
    • Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t’ have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
    I believe I read that, too, and was thinking 'WTF?!?" I wonder how they'd know who's covered and who's not?

    From here on I can't comment because my reading has only gone so far (up to page 150)

    Don't get me wrong, I think there are problems aplenty with healthcare, but THIS was not the way to fix it.

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