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Thread: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Oddly enough, no I'm not.
    I'm not sure how you could've been in support of the proposed changes...did you READ the bill...or just listen to what the media was telling you?

    I read it...and it was the scariest thing I've seen since The Exorcist.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Which makes one wonder where you stand on the issue and why.

    The public option would force millions onto it, whether they wanted it or not, and cost the country far more then we can afford... where is the upside to it?
    Millions are forced into particular plans right now whether they want them or not. However there are also many who are stuck tied to a particular job due to pre-existing conditions as well as self employed folks who can't get access to a decent plan because they're ensuring only their family and not lots of employees. A public option would give these folks access to a plan they could purchase. A public option would make it so that nobody felt tied to a particular job merely for insurances purposes. And a public option, done right, would force private insurers to become more competitive. Right now they only have to be competitive when it comes to ensuring large companies with oodles of employees. They don't give a crap about being competitive when it comes to ensuring some guy, his wife, and 2 kids when the contract doesn't include 100 other folks too.

    I'm sure if a public option were available many employers would no longer feel it was necessary to supply their employees with a plan. So what? Insurance, IMO, should not be tied to your employer anyway. Your car insurance isn't usually tied to your employer, neither is your home owners. Why in the hell should your HEALTH AND WELL BEING insurance be tied to your boss? It shouldn't.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    the way things stand now (waxman/rangel), obamacare will FORCE folks to finagle insurance for THEMSELVES, which obviously they couldn't afford in the first place

    and it will FINE as criminals those it catches breathing without insurance, just like driving is handled in CA

    not quite the HELP these people were hoping for

    even without the public option, obamacare still faces probably insuperable problems

    it taxes small business 8%, in times like these the killer blow

    it proposes massive cuts to medicare and medicaid

    politics can't go nowhere without senior support, hello

    the doofus in the white house just doesn't get it

    oh well

    like baucus the gatekeeper said in june, back to the drawing board

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I'm not sure how you could've been in support of the proposed changes...did you READ the bill...or just listen to what the media was telling you?

    I read it...and it was the scariest thing I've seen since The Exorcist.
    I haven't read all of it. I've read parts. It's over 1000 pages long.

    Could you post snips of the scariest bits?

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    the public option is dead, you can argue this or that, but you're debating a dead horse

    an exercise in abstraction, in other words

    pre existing conditions and portability issues are HUGE and legitimate concerns, indeed, well pointed out

    the direction we're heading, looks like, is a far narrower approach

    obama-style universalism is a LOSER

    a rifle shot strategy to take on the most pernicious aspects of our current system, specifically

    legislation to ensure that those with pre-existers are protected could win unanimous support in both houses

    laws designed to stop this business of trying to drop someone once they receive some deadly diagnosis---same thing

    according to allen boyd of florida, even house LEADERSHIP is considering scrapping waxman/rangel, starting all over, and going the more focused route instead

    even if pelosi doesn't change course, the politics are just so much bigger than her

    that is, she can try for waxman/rangel, but she'll get nowhere

    eventually, she's gonna have to come back to what boyd is saying

    it's as obvious as gravity

    pre-existing conditions, portability---good points

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Healthcare could obviously do with lots of reform whether or not there is a public option.

    I personally am a tad disappointed they seem to be giving up on this whole public option thing so easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Having health insurance tied to your employer is one issue. No decent options for small businesses with few employees is another issue. Having insurance companies drop folks from the plan as soon as they become chronically ill is another issue. Pre-exsting conditions is another issue.

    There's a whole host of things that the free market simply isn't fixing and insurance companies are making oodles of money off this riot.
    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Millions are forced into particular plans right now whether they want them or not. However there are also many who are stuck tied to a particular job due to pre-existing conditions as well as self employed folks who can't get access to a decent plan because they're ensuring only their family and not lots of employees. A public option would give these folks access to a plan they could purchase. A public option would make it so that nobody felt tied to a particular job merely for insurances purposes. And a public option, done right, would force private insurers to become more competitive. Right now they only have to be competitive when it comes to ensuring large companies with oodles of employees. They don't give a crap about being competitive when it comes to ensuring some guy, his wife, and 2 kids when the contract doesn't include 100 other folks too.

    I'm sure if a public option were available many employers would no longer feel it was necessary to supply their employees with a plan. So what? Insurance, IMO, should not be tied to your employer anyway. Your car insurance isn't usually tied to your employer, neither is your home owners. Why in the hell should your HEALTH AND WELL BEING insurance be tied to your boss? It shouldn't.
    I commend you, maddam. You're the first Conservative whose commentary I've read on the matter of health care reform who actually sees what I and other Dems see.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    A public option would give these folks access to a plan they could purchase. A public option would make it so that nobody felt tied to a particular job merely for insurances purposes. And a public option, done right, would force private insurers to become more competitive.
    It would force private insurance out o the market.

    Why should I pay both the new higher taxes to pay for this, AND pay for my own insurance? My wife and I take home about.. 3k or so a month. We right now pay $395 a month for insurance. Oh, and dental, and vision brings us to $455 a month. We don't mind, it's good coverage. HOWEVER, we are tight for cash each month. (because of child support, we are in the tax braket of 60k a year) we're gonna get taxed more. AND WE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Right now they only have to be competitive when it comes to ensuring large companies with oodles of employees. They don't give a crap about being competitive when it comes to ensuring some guy, his wife, and 2 kids when the contract doesn't include 100 other folks too.
    Why not address this without having a giant new government program eh? What's wrong with sweeping reform aimed at fixing this without spending $1,000,000,000,000.00, a number that unless they somehow magically do it "right" will never be the final cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I'm sure if a public option were available many employers would no longer feel it was necessary to supply their employees with a plan. So what?
    So 45 Million "uninsured" will become 100 million or more doesn't bother you? It's just money right, the Government can print more...

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Insurance, IMO, should not be tied to your employer anyway. Your car insurance isn't usually tied to your employer, neither is your home owners. Why in the hell should your HEALTH AND WELL BEING insurance be tied to your boss? It shouldn't.
    Then lets focus on ideas that address this problem you have with it, without giving the country an unsustainable monsterosity of a bureaucracy that will lead to rationing, government control over our lives.. "Oh you need to live your life according to these guidelines or we won't cover you..." sort of powers.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I am not disappointed they are offering the concession.
    Rush Limbaugh says the concession is just a head game, don't believe it. BTW, Rush (whom you hate so much) admits that REFORM is needed, just not the kind Obama wants.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I'm not sure how you could've been in support of the proposed changes...did you READ the bill...or just listen to what the media was telling you?

    I read it...and it was the scariest thing I've seen since The Exorcist.
    You've read the entire bill? All 1,000+ pages?? Get out!!!

    I'm only up to page 150 and I haven't found much that is "scary" about it. The issue of rationing health care is bogus! That implies that insurance companies or the government would be telling us what health care benefits we would receive, and that's not true of the HCR bill at all from what I've read. In fact, it's the exact opposite. The Advisory Committee would only review current treatments, surgical technicques and other aspects of the medical field overall and discuss what works and what doesn't work, what's cost effective and what's not cost effective, and recommend to the Commissionor what health insurance benefits would best benefit the insured. Right now, the only entity that does that is your insurance company. And whose to say that what they remove is actually benefitting you? Could it be that some benefit was removed not because it benefitted your well-being, but rather because it didn't benefit their bottom line? And what about other benefits that you could be receiving, but your medical insurance won't incorporate it into your policy because they know it would make you healthier, i.e., covering certain treatments or certain prescription drugs?

    From my point of view, an advisory board is a tool to help keep health insurance companies honest because then they'd have someone looking over their shoulders.

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    Re: FACT CHECK: White House ignores health concession

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I haven't read all of it. I've read parts. It's over 1000 pages long.

    Could you post snips of the scariest bits?
    I'd be happy to. Check the actual pages if you think this is just fear mongering.

    • Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure
    • Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get
    • Page 42: The “Health Choices Commissioner” will decide health benefits for you.
    • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
    • Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
    • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
    • Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans
    • Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
    • Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange
    • Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services (for illegal aliens)
    • Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled
    • Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No “judicial review” is permitted against the government monopoly.
    • Page 127: The government will set all wages.
    • Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan.
    • Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
    • Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.
    • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
    • Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t’ have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
    • Page 170: Any non-resident alien is exempt from individual taxes.
    • Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
    • Page 203: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.”
    • Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected.
    • Page 241: Doctors, no matter what specialty, will all be paid the same.
    • Page 253: Government sets value of doctors’ time, their professional judgment, etc.
    • Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
    • Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
    • Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
    • Page 298: If doctors treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, they will be penalized by the government.
    • Page 317: Doctors are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies.
    • Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
    • Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
    • Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
    • Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of special needs individuals.
    • Page 379: Telehealth Advisory Committee - healthcare by phone.
    • Page 425: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens - counseling and hospice, end-of-life
    • Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc.
    • Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources guiding you towards death.
    • Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment
    • Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient’s health deteriorates. This can include an order for end-of-life plans.
    • Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life..
    • Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy.
    • Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
    * PG 502 Line 5-18 Government builds the “Center” to conduct, support, & synthesize research to define our HealthCare Services.
    * PG 502 Section 1181 Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research Established.
    * PG 503 Line 13-19 Government will build registries and data networks from your electronic medical records.
    * PG 503 Line 21-25 Government may secure data directly from any department or agency of the USA including your data.
    * PG 504 Line 6-10 The “Center” will collect data both published & unpublished (that means your public & your private info)
    * PG 506 Line 19-21 The Center will recommend policies that would allow for public access of data.
    * PG 518 Line 21-25 The Commission will have input from HealthCare consumer reps.
    * PG 524 18-22 Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund set up.
    * PGs 525-620 deals with the Govt basically taking over nursing homes, long-term care facilities (assisted living) through regulations of the facilities, the owners of sd facilities, the employees of sd facilities and even the land owners of that sd facilities reside on. Additionally as you read these 90+ pages you can come to the conclusion that any Health related services will be determined and rationed by the Govt for our senior citizens and others in nursing homes.
    * PG 620 Line 1-9 The Government will define, prioritize, and nationalize your Health Care Services.
    * PG 621 Lines 20-25 Government will define what Quality means in HealthCare.
    * PG 622 Lines 2-9 To pay for the quality Standards Government will transfer money from to other Government Trust Funds.
    * PG 624 “Quality” measures shall be designed to assess outcomes & functional status of patients.
    * PG 628 Section 1443 Government will give “Multi-Stake Holders” Pre-Rule Making input into Selection of “Quality” Measures.
    * PG 630 9-24/631 1-9 Those Multi-stake holder groups including Unions & groups like ACORN deciding HealthCare quality.
    * PG 632 Lines 14-25 The Government may implement any “Quality measure” of HealthCare Services as they see fit.
    * PG 633 14-25/ 634 1-9 The Secretary may issue non-endorsed “Quality Measures” for Physician Services & Dialysis Services.
    * PG 635 – 653 Physicians Payments Sunshine Provision
    * PG 654-659 Public Reporting on Health Care-Associated Infections.
    * PG 660-671 Doctors in Residency – Government will tell you where your residency will be, thus where you’ll live.
    * PG 676-686 Government will regulate hospitals in every aspect of residency programs, including teaching hospitals.
    * PG 686-700 Increased Funding to Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse.
    * PGs 701-704 Section 1619 If your part of HealthCare plan that isn’t in Government HealthCare Exchange but you qualify for Federal aid, no payment.
    * PG 705-709 SEC. 1128 If Secretary gets complaints on HealthCare provider or supplier, Government can do background check.
    * PG 711 Lines 8-14 The Secretary has broad powers to deny HealthCare providers/suppliers admittance into HealthCare Exchange.
    * Pg 719-720 Section 1637 any Doctor who orders durable medical equipment or home medical services must be enrolled in Medicare.
    * PG 722 Section 1639 Government Mandates Doctors must have face-to-face with patient to certify patient for Home Health Services.
    * PG 724 23-25 PG 725 1-5 The same Government certifications will apply to Medicaid & CHIP. Pg 735 lines 16-25 For law enforcement purposes, the Secretary of Health & Human Services will give Attorney General access to all data.
    * PG 724 Lines 16-22 Government reserves right to apply face-to-face certification for patient to ANYany other HealthCare service.
    * PG 740-757 Government sets guidelines for subsidizing the uninsured
    *Pg 757-762 Fed Government will shift burden of payments to Disproportionate Share Hospitals (DSH) to States.
    * PG 763 1-8 No DS/EA hospitals will be paid unless they provide services without regard to national origin
    * Pg 765 Section 1711 Government will require Preventative Services including vaccines.
    * Pg 768 Section 1713 Government – Nursing Home Visitation Services
    * Pg 769 11-14 Nursing Home Visit Services include-economic self-sufficiency, employment advancement, school-readiness.
    * Pg 769 3-5 Nursing Home Visit Services – “increasing birth intervals between pregnancies.” Abortions are covered under the health reform bill.
    * Pg 770 SEC 1714 Federal Government mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services.
    * Pg 789-797 Government will set & mandate drug prices, controlling which drugs will bring to market.
    * Pgs 797-800 SEC. 1744 PAYMENTS for grad medical education.
    * PG 801 Sec 1751 the Government will decide which Health care conditions will be paid. Say RATION!
    * Pg 810 SEC. 1759. Billing Agents, clearinghouses, etc. required to register.
    * PG 820-824 Sec 1801 Government will identify individuals ineligible for subsidies. Will access all personal finances.
    * Pg 824-829 SEC. 1802. Government Sets up Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund. Another tax black hole.
    * PG 829-833 Government will impose a fee on all private health insurance plans including self- insured to pay for Trust Fund!
    * PG 835 11-13 fees imposed by Government for Trust Fund shall be treated as if they were taxes.
    * Pg 838-840 Government will design & implement Home Visitation Program for families with young kids & families expecting kids.
    * PG 844-845 This Home Visitation Program includes Government coming into your house & giving parents parenting skills.
    * Pg 859 Government will establish a Public Health Fund at a cost of $88,800,000,000.
    * PG 865 to 876 The NHS Corps is a program where Drs. perform mandatory HealthCare for 2 years for part loan repayment.
    * PG 876-892 The Government takes over the education of our Medical students and Drs.
    * PG 898 the Government will establish a Public Health Workforce Corps. to ensure supply of public health professionals.
    * PG 898 the Public health workforce corps shall consist of civilian employees of the U.S. as Secretary deems.
    * PG 898 the Public health workforce corps shall consist of officers of Regular & Reserve Corps of Service.
    * PG 900 the Public Health Workforce Corps includes veterinarians.
    * PG 901 the Public Health Workforce Corps WILL include commissioned Regular & Reserve Officers.
    * PG 910 the Government will develop, build & run Public Health Training Centers.
    * PG 913-914 Government starts a HealthCare affirmative action program thru guise of diversity scholarships.
    * PG 915 SEC. 2251. Government mandates Cultural & linguistic competency training for HealthCare professionals.
    * Pg 932 the Government will establish Preventative & Wellness Trust fund – initial cost of $30,800,000,000-Billion.
    * PG 935 21-22 Government will identify specific goals & objectives for prevention & wellness activities.
    * PG 936 Government will develop “Healthy People & National Public Health Performance Standards”
    * PG 942 Lines 22-25 Offices of Surgeon General -Public Health Services, Minority Health, Women’s Health.
    * PG 950- 980 BIG Government core public health infrastructure includes workforce capacity, lab systems; health information systems, etc
    * PG 993 Government will establish school based health clinics.
    * PG 994 School Based Health Clinics will be integrated into the school environment.
    * PG 1001 The Government will establish a National Medical Device Registry.
    * PG 1003 9-11 National Medical Dev Reg. ‘‘other postmarked device surveillance activities”
    * PG 1018 States give up some of their State Sovereignty.



    Don't get me wrong, I think there are problems aplenty with healthcare, but THIS was not the way to fix it.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 08-18-09 at 01:57 PM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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