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Thread: AARP loses members over health care stance

  1. #31
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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    Holy ****, I thought the NRA was the most powerful lobby and they only have 12 million!

    Hell, do we really have 40 million seniors here!?
    Ever been to Arkansas?

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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    psssst, look at his user-name.
    Pssst, look at his leaning.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I already covered that, the seniors paid in, it isn't their fault that the fund was mismanaged, and they are in fact entitled to the system by law and by promise because they followed the rules, and they also contributed to the system at some point and time.
    Their benefits are being paid right now, and it would not matter if Warren Buffet would have ran the program it still would be in trouble due to skyrocketing healthcare costs. Medicare is in trouble because healthcare costs are growing at least twice the inflation rate.

    Also covered that, but we also get those benefits when we retire, not that I think it's a great deal, but it is the way it works, UHC is different in that it's an automatic entitlement that many users do not contribute to, which would make the seniors concerns and arguments both different and completely valid respectively. Medicare is a socialist program, I never denied that, Medicaid is the very definition of socialism in that users are not all contributory, we pay for it and don't use it, we will all have the benefit of Medicare(probably not actually) if we work for the number of quarters required and meet the criteria, that does not change the fact that if you don't work the required amount of quarters and pay taxes, you don't get into the system, unlike UHC which is an automatic entitlement, so yes, the seniors do have a valid and unhypocritical argument as they aren't complaining about the same thing.
    First off, I am not arguing against the societal need for Medicare or some other program like it. The vast majority of seniors could not fund their own retirement on their own and fund their own medical coverage through the private sector. Without a massively subsidized program, most seniors could not possibly afford health care. So while Medicare is ripe for reform, its a necessity unless we want the majority of seniors to do without healthcare.

    Secondly, I am not even necessarily arguing in favor of a federal universal healthcare system. In a nation of 300 million people, I don't see how such a program could possibly be managed efficiently at the federal level.

    My problem is with the hypocrisy. If you depend on the world's largest socialist healthcare program, and that program is made possible by huge wealth transfers from younger working generations, then don't drag your ass out to a town hall to scream against "socialism" and "keeping the government out of your Medicare". That is the very definition of hypocrisy. Unless we all want to see huge increases in our FICA taxes, Medicare has to be reformed. That is just the way it is. However, we will be able to reform it if we have a bunch of hypocrites out decrying socialism every time someone from either side of the political spectrum suggests we do anything to change it.

    If you ask me, Medicare would be fairly simple to fix. All we need to do is start charging Medicare recipients premiums that account for the risk their personal life choices result in. For example, why should a smoker on Medicare pay the same rate as a non-smoker? Why should someone that is obese on Medicare pay the same rate as a recipient that eats right and keeps their weight down?

    Its pretty damn screwed up when 30 year old cancer patient that loses their insurance has to be absolutely destitute before they qualify for government aid, but a 300 pound smoker on Medicare gets everyone else to pick up the tab for their poor life choices. Of course, if someone actually tried to change Medicare and actually charge the obese and smokers higher rates being they will cost us a ton more than others on the program, the screamers would be out in bigger droves than they are now.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  4. #34
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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Their benefits are being paid right now, and it would not matter if Warren Buffet would have ran the program it still would be in trouble due to skyrocketing healthcare costs. Medicare is in trouble because healthcare costs are growing at least twice the inflation rate.
    Right, tort law and the AMA have alot to do with skyrocketing healthcare costs, but the fact is that most of the bleed on Medicare is administrative costs and the fact that the funding is not protected against being leached off of by the general fund, in other words, 100% of it's funding does not go where it belongs. Outside of that, taxes are never enough to fund something as inflation prone and overregulated as the health industry by itself because of the nature of this mess, but there are alternatives to a tax only model, such as heath funds being annuitized, HSA models being modified and other funding mechanisms such as bonds, it's quite possible to keep the program solvent, but less convenient for political purposes.


    First off, I am not arguing against the societal need for Medicare or some other program like it. The vast majority of seniors could not fund their own retirement on their own and fund their own medical coverage through the private sector.
    Untrue, seniors benefits are still being taxed, which takes them out of the retirement planning market if they are stuck with government only retirement benefits, the first thing that should happen is everyone's taxes should be lowered so that people can fund their own needs such as food, shelter, retirement planning, etc., furthermore, there are plenty of private market solutions that are more than sufficient to help seniors but if they are concentrating on pure survival these options are fiscally out of their reaches, IRA's, Annuities, private pension funds, mutual funds, and even the stock market(if people can stand the risk) are all fantastic options, but again, sometimes the taxes shorten gains or the minimums for the plans are out of reach when people have no savings less after tax.
    Without a massively subsidized program, most seniors could not possibly afford health care. So while Medicare is ripe for reform, its a necessity unless we want the majority of seniors to do without healthcare.
    You're close, reform is needed, but for efficiency in provision and cost, not subsidy reform.

    Secondly, I am not even necessarily arguing in favor of a federal universal healthcare system. In a nation of 300 million people, I don't see how such a program could possibly be managed efficiently at the federal level.
    Fair enough, I may have misunderstood where you were coming from as this is the major contention point at the moment.

    My problem is with the hypocrisy. If you depend on the world's largest socialist healthcare program, and that program is made possible by huge wealth transfers from younger working generations, then don't drag your ass out to a town hall to scream against "socialism" and "keeping the government out of your Medicare". That is the very definition of hypocrisy. Unless we all want to see huge increases in our FICA taxes, Medicare has to be reformed. That is just the way it is. However, we will be able to reform it if we have a bunch of hypocrites out decrying socialism every time someone from either side of the political spectrum suggests we do anything to change it.
    I still don't see it as the quite the same thing, simply because of the contributory nature of the programs.

    If you ask me, Medicare would be fairly simple to fix. All we need to do is start charging Medicare recipients premiums that account for the risk their personal life choices result in.
    Actually, since supplementals are semi-private, give tax credits for using them and allow the companies more bargaining power so that they can relax underwriting standards and open up that market more, this would take alot of the payment burden off of the Medicare A/B side.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Since when are you an Independent??? You are never independent, you're as liberal as they come. Let me see you once sound conservative and I'll believe you.
    Is he wrong? Or are you just going to make snide commentary as usual adding nothing to the discussion?

    SI is correct in that the Republicans (I wouldn't call them Conservative) are hypocrites in telling seniors that socialized medicine is bad for them when so many of them enjoy socialized medicine. Furthermore, the Republicans in Congress enjoy an exceptionally expensive socialized medicine program. As do our military personnel. Doesn't work eh according to those in power who actively take advantage of it?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    Hmm I've read this story as well as the CBS story that this article draws from and I'm curious as to what their source was for the cancellation. Did AARP themselves specifically say that they had 60,000 cancel or did the rival organization ASA claim such? So where exactly did they get their 60,000 number? The article doesn't seem to give a source for that.

    Also if they normally lose 300,000 monthly and gain 400,000 they would be at a net gain of 100,000 members even with this 60,000 number they still have 40,000 plus members joining a month. So without more data its hard to tell if they actually lost 60,000 and what the reasons were.

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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    [quote=SouthernDemocrat;1058200561]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post

    The money seniors paid in while they were working subsidized their parents and grandparents Medicare benefits. The majority of seniors will get far more in Medicare benefits than they ever paid in.

    If you think the 96 dollars a month seniors pay for Medicare covers the plan for them then you are in a dream world. We, the workers, are subsidizing their health care. Its the very definition of socialism and any senior that would rail against socialism in one breath and demand their medicare in the next is a hypocrite.
    There are significant differences between Medicare/Medicaid for seniors and any form of UHC. Seniors are retired without a steady income, they are not typically able to participate in an employee insurance program or purchase their own. They could very well have the will to pay for their own healthcare, just not the resources. The UHC program being promoted by Congress and the President would force people to pay for healthcare for people who are very much able to pay for their own, the only thing missing is the will to do so.

    Significant difference.
    Last edited by Alex; 08-19-09 at 12:54 AM.
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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The way things are now is they are bleeding the system dry. That's why things have to change. Unless you want a massive fica tax increase in a few years, Medicare has to be reformed.
    How about reforming regulation? The hospital I work in is a prime example. We are subjected to numerous inspections by law, and they are all looking for the same thing. Why not cut cost for procurers, manufacturers, suppliers, and the hospitals, so they can pass that savings on to patients? Eliminating some of these regulations would do just that.

    How about streamlining the government so unnecessary bureaucracy is removed? That would save the government programs a ton of money.

    Broken government programs cannot be fixed with more of the same, and more expensive, government programs. Put the power into the hands of the people seeking profits and things will always improve. Again, my employer is the perfect example. It was the county hospital, government-run healthcare. It was slowly decaying. Now, it is privately owned and one of the biggest medical centers in the Midwest.
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    I'm dependent on medicare and I don't want government involved in health care!!!! Ah!! Death Panels! Ah!!! Hysteria!! Misinformed ignorant hysteria!!! Ah!!
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
    There is a special place in hell for those who care only about themselves.

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    Re: AARP loses members over health care stance

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    I'm dependent on medicare and I don't want government involved in health care!!!! Ah!! Death Panels! Ah!!! Hysteria!! Misinformed ignorant hysteria!!! Ah!!
    So can you show us you are informed, or do you just want to spit out incorrect talking points?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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