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Sebelius: Talk of `death panels' is scare tactic

celticlord

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My Way News - Sebelius: Talk of `death panels' is scare tactic

Kathleen Sebelius says opponents of the administration's health overhaul are using scare tactics to try to derail an overhaul. She says that claims the government would set up death panels to rule on life-sustaining care for ailing older people are wrong. In her words, "nothing could be further from the truth."

What else can we call a "comparative effectiveness research commission" empowered to decide whether it is more "effective" to treat granny or to let her die, if not a "death panel"?
 
Doesn't insurance companies also in effect sentence people to death if they choose to?
Is it fine if it is a private company but nothing short of hell if it is a Government?
 
Well, the goal is efficiency and lower costs amid scarce resources.

Which means that it basically becomes a triage on a national level.

In a triage, you allocate resources to those who have the best chance of survival . . . and sometimes leave others to die.

This is standard medical practice.
 
What else can we call a "comparative effectiveness research commission" empowered to decide whether it is more "effective" to treat granny or to let her die, if not a "death panel"?

You can call it the same thing that the PRIVATE insurance companies do now since they are doing the same thing. Do you call the private insurance companies "Death Panels"?
 
Doesn't insurance companies also in effect sentence people to death if they choose to?
Is it fine if it is a private company but nothing short of hell if it is a Government?

You can argue it either way, but the point is, the implication that the government might do that is considered outrageous.
 
You can argue it either way, but the point is, the implication that the government might do that is considered outrageous.

In that we will agree to disagree.
It is foolish to expect the Govt. to save everyone.
 
Doesn't insurance companies also in effect sentence people to death if they choose to?
Is it fine if it is a private company but nothing short of hell if it is a Government?
Insurance companies are delivering on a contract. If folks aren't getting the right terms in the contract, then we should be focusing on getting the right terms, and then being prepared to pay accordingly. If the coverage is inadequate the resolution is to buy more coverage; the flaw in private insurance is one that marketplace negotiation is quite able to resolve, if the market mechanisms were allowed back into health insurance.

GovernmentCare is not a market, and there is no place for negotiation. I do not want the equivalent of NICE, where folks have to routinely protest to get the government to pull its head of its ass on healthcare. I do not want a bunch of government bureaucrats stamping a dollar value on my life based on a QALY score calculated in some basement in Washington.
 
Doesn't insurance companies also in effect sentence people to death if they choose to?
Is it fine if it is a private company but nothing short of hell if it is a Government?

Now you are getting it right.

Yes, an Insurance company can deny a customer care if they feel it is not covered. That customer can then search out other options to include paying for it themselves. Under this Bobo Care turd of a bill that is not an option. Or, I guess one can just go to another Federal government for care.
 
In that we will agree to disagree.
It is foolish to expect the Govt. to save everyone.
It is foolish to put the government in the position of saving people period.

The United States Constitution, through its 14th Amendment, mandates equal protection of the law, and equal application of the law. If health care is rendered a matter of law, through GovernmentCare, the standard for the United States is that the Government must provide equally for all. The old must be regarded as vital as the young, the chronically ill must be regarded as vital as the robustly healthy. This is the standard to which the United States government is beholden.

As regards health care, this is not a standard the government can achieve. No matter how well funded GovernmentCare might be, through whatever mechanism, government will have to allocate resources (for all resources are scarce), and so government will have to choose whom to sacrifice and whom to save. Government will have to make this choice because the resources will always be less than the demand upon them. Government will have to allow an unequal application of health care law, for no other application could be sustainable. Government will have to allow that which the Constitution says it must never allow.

The Constitution of the United States does not guarantee equal outcomes in all situations. The Constitution does guarantee that the government will apply itself equally to all people; the only way government can measure up to that guarantee in health care is to not assume the role of providing health care. The only fully equal GovernmentCare is no GovernmentCare.
 
In that we will agree to disagree.
It is foolish to expect the Govt. to save everyone.

I'm not sure we're disagreeing.
 
You can call it the same thing that the PRIVATE insurance companies do now since they are doing the same thing. Do you call the private insurance companies "Death Panels"?
Actually, I call them money grubbing leeches. I've been arguing for years that we would be better off without insurance companies, and just pay doctors directly. Since I have thus far been unable to persuade people of the obvious correctness of that position, I am compelled to adopt the secondary stance of arguing for the most economically efficient and least unethical use of health insurance.

Are insurance policies inadequate? Yes. Should people rely on them exclusively the way they do? No. Should people take better care of their health to avoid the need for doctors and hospitals and magic happy pills? Absolutely.

However, if we are going to have insurance, the proper thing to do is focus efforts on making insurance markets efficient and responsive to individual wants and needs. Heaping more inefficient, ineffective, and unresponsive regulation on those markets is three gigantic steps in a very wrong direction.
 
It is foolish to put the government in the position of saving people period.

Why?
NHS was designed to help and save others and it still does that.
I'd rather have Government running it than private companies who only goal is money ignoring the human aspect of it.

At least i have more control over my GP than i would a insurance company.
 
Why?
NHS was designed to help and save others and it still does that.
I'd rather have Government running it than private companies who only goal is money ignoring the human aspect of it.

At least i have more control over my GP than i would a insurance company.
I'd rather have people in the position of saving themselves. No insurance companies and no GovernmentCare. If that is not feasible, I would prefer a flexible and responsive insurance market that maximizes patient choice and thus patient power.

In the United States, we do not have a sufficiently flexible and responsive insurance market, but the lunatic left's idea of reform is to make the market less flexible and less responsive by making it a government bureaucracy instead. Basically, their idea of a solution is to make the problem ten times worse.
 
My Way News - Sebelius: Talk of `death panels' is scare tactic

What else can we call a "comparative effectiveness research commission" empowered to decide whether it is more "effective" to treat granny or to let her
die, if not a "death panel"?

So then what you are saying is that if the government is going to provide an alternatively cheaper health care plan it shouldn't consider who should is eligible for such a plan. I don't get how this means it is a death panel. Would you instead support the government providing health care for everyone? Universally? Regardless of what that would mean for your taxes? Or would you rather let companies decide instead who should be covered and who shouldn't?
 
Insurance companies are delivering on a contract. If folks aren't getting the right terms in the contract, then we should be focusing on getting the right terms, and then being prepared to pay accordingly. If the coverage is inadequate the resolution is to buy more coverage; the flaw in private insurance is one that marketplace negotiation is quite able to resolve, if the market mechanisms were allowed back into health insurance.

I think your statement perfectly sums up the argument.

If the insurance comapny isn't meting it's obligations under the contract agreed to, there are ways to seek remedy.

However, a vast majority of claim denials are accurate under the contract that was agreed to by both the insurance company and the client.

If the client seeks additional coverage, they can certainly do so.
 
Why?
NHS was designed to help and save others and it still does that.
I'd rather have Government running it than private companies who only goal is money ignoring the human aspect of it.

At least i have more control over my GP than i would a insurance company.


BS!

If you think you will have more control over a government plan than a private plan then I bet you need mental health counseling. Maybe that will be in this turd of a program, but then it would be too late.
 
Why?
NHS was designed to help and save others and it still does that.
I'd rather have Government running it than private companies who only goal is money ignoring the human aspect of it.

At least i have more control over my GP than i would a insurance company.

The private company will view you as a source of profit. A big part of a company making profit, is the happiness of its customers.

The government will just view your health care as a liability.
 
I think your statement perfectly sums up the argument.

If the insurance comapny isn't meting it's obligations under the contract agreed to, there are ways to seek remedy.

However, a vast majority of claim denials are accurate under the contract that was agreed to by both the insurance company and the client.

If the client seeks additional coverage, they can certainly do so.


1. Open up the buying of health insurance across State borders.

2. Tort reform.

3. Government sponsored programs to clean up the medical malpractice similar to the FAA and NTSB in commercial aviation.

4. More medical schools that will increase the total number of doctors.

Just a few doable ideas. Hell, I'm just an old used up Polack and I can come up with better ideas than this 1000+ page turd of a Bill.
 
Why?
NHS was designed to help and save others and it still does that.
I'd rather have Government running it than private companies who only goal is money ignoring the human aspect of it.

At least i have more control over my GP than i would a insurance company.

No you dont. The government is the sole decider on your life and death. You can not choose a doctor and if you are over 50 then you are on limited time since if you get sick then the government does not think it is worth curing you.. Dont you read the talking points!?!?!

It is much much better when a private insurance company does this, because they are only out for money after all! It is not like they would deny you a cure because it is "too expensive" or you happen to forget to mention you had ingrown toe nail removed 30 years ago.. I mean that never happens at all...
 
What else can we call a "comparative effectiveness research commission" empowered to decide whether it is more "effective" to treat granny or to let her die, if not a "death panel"?

Would you please be so kind as to quote the actual source material (eg one of the actual bills) as to the purpose and scope of this commission?
 
So then what you are saying is that if the government is going to provide an alternatively cheaper health care plan it shouldn't consider who should is eligible for such a plan. I don't get how this means it is a death panel. Would you instead support the government providing health care for everyone? Universally? Regardless of what that would mean for your taxes? Or would you rather let companies decide instead who should be covered and who shouldn't?
We need to put a couple of myths to rest.

The first is this canard of "universal health care". It doesn't exist. Even countries that claim to have it don't. NHS rations care. France discourages people from seeing doctors. Every nation has a means for limiting the amount of care people receive. Every government that wishes to avoid huge cost overruns looks for ways to restrict what it will pay out in terms of health care--just like every insurance company. Care is never universal, and will never be universal. Passing the buck to the government does not eliminate the basic reality of scarcity.

The second is that "comparative effectiveness research" is not about providing a cheaper plan. It is about deciding what treatments and protocols are "effective"--which is to say which ones are worth the price tag. Those pronouncements are going to be pushed upon all doctors, and the Health Exchanges are, if this legislative abortion passes, going to be empowered to mandate that all insurance companies cover only "effective" treatments and protocols. (The job description of the Health Choices Commissioner is to make your insurance choices for you.)

The third is the notion that anything in the legislation before the Congress has anything to do with making health care less costly. In fact, the CBO's own analyses of the various bills and proposals has been consistent on one thing: they will cost more, not less; they "bend the curve" up, not down.

The one actual cost containment mechanism being proposed is this notion of comparative effectiveness research, which is simply deciding which treatments and protocols GovernmentCare will cover--which means that, at some juncture, GovernmentCare will be telling you that, rather than pay for a particular medicine, or surgery, or other treatment, it's better to just let granny die.

Dear Leader wants you to believe that such a scenario is nonsense, that the mere mention of it is a "scare tactice", and when he says such things he lies through his teeth. "Effective" is an economic consideration when viewed in the aggregate. "Effective" means, in the aggregate, not paying for something despite the patient's desires and the doctor's judgment. That is what "effective" means. That is all that "effective" means.

Why is private insurance better? Because private insurance can be made a competitive market. Granted, Congress has, in the last half century or so, gone out of its way to make health insurance a most non-competitive market, in particular by making health insurance a tax deduction to employers and not to individuals (there is no better way to remove competition than to restrict the customer base). This, however, is easy to alter, if people will stop long enough to think the possibilities through. With more insurance companies offering more insurance products, patients have more options, and that gives them market power to say to insurance companies what manner of coverage best suits them. If we are going to have insurance, further restricting and regulating insurance markets will only result in a system that is even less efficient and less attentive to patient need than the one we have now--and yet all the Anti-Republicans can think of is more regulation, more restriction, more government, all of which adds up to more cost for less actual care.

There are better solutions out there. We can alleviate restrictions on insurance, if we simply must have insurance. We can make insurance an individual and not an employer purchase. We can end the economic madness of "fee for service" compensation, that pays for procedures and not for outcomes. These are things that will directly lower health insurance premiums, make insurance companies more response to patients, and bend the health care cost curve lower for society and for individuals. They are not things the Anti-Republicans wish to even acknowledge as possible solutions; they prefer ideas which have been proven not to work, ideas which have been proven to result in less care, and ideas which have been proven to increase costs rather than curtail them--that is the Anti-Republicans' notion of "reform".
 
Under this Bobo Care turd of a bill that is not an option.
Would you please quote from the source material (one of the actual bills) the relevant section that states that citizens would not be able to purchase their own medical treatments?
 
Would you please be so kind as to quote the actual source material (eg one of the actual bills) as to the purpose and scope of this commission?
HR3200, Division B, Title IV, Subtitle A

The Secretary shall establish within the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality a Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research (in this section referred to as the `Center') to conduct, support, and synthesize research (including research conducted or supported under section 1013 of the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act of 2003) with respect to the outcomes, effectiveness, and appropriateness of health care services and procedures in order to identify the manner in which diseases, disorders, and other health conditions can most effectively and appropriately be prevented, diagnosed, treated, and managed clinically.
This section enshrines utilitarian approaches to medicine. "Effective" and "appropriate" are of little comfort to a patient being told the medicine they believe will help will not be provided; they are of little comfort to the patient told the surgery that will keep them from being bedridden for the remaining years of their life simply will not be performed.

Utilitarian medicine is bad medicine. It is the wholesale abdication of the Hippocratic Oath, which oath is the one thing that renders physicians worthy to gamble with people's lives in the manner they do. Utilitarian medicine means, invariably, letting granny die.
 
HR3200, Division B, Title IV, Subtitle A

This section enshrines utilitarian approaches to medicine. "Effective" and "appropriate" are of little comfort to a patient being told the medicine they believe will help will not be provided; they are of little comfort to the patient told the surgery that will keep them from being bedridden for the remaining years of their life simply will not be performed.

Utilitarian medicine is bad medicine. It is the wholesale abdication of the Hippocratic Oath, which oath is the one thing that renders physicians worthy to gamble with people's lives in the manner they do. Utilitarian medicine means, invariably, letting granny die.
Where's the part where they make decisions about Granny?
After reading it it seems that they do nothing of the sort.
It doesn't even say that they make recommendations for policy ouside of research.

Please examine their powers and duties:

(2) DUTIES- The Center shall--
      • `(A) conduct, support, and synthesize research relevant to the comparative effectiveness of the full spectrum of health care items, services and systems, including pharmaceuticals, medical devices, medical and surgical procedures, and other medical interventions;
      • `(B) conduct and support systematic reviews of clinical research, including original research conducted subsequent to the date of the enactment of this section;
      • `(C) continuously develop rigorous scientific methodologies for conducting comparative effectiveness studies, and use such methodologies appropriately;
      • `(D) submit to the Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission, the Secretary, and Congress appropriate relevant reports described in subsection (d)(2); and
      • `(E) encourage, as appropriate, the development and use of clinical registries and the development of clinical effectiveness research data networks from electronic health records, post marketing drug and medical device surveillance efforts, and other forms of electronic health data.
    • `(3) POWERS-
      • `(A) OBTAINING OFFICIAL DATA- The Center may secure directly from any department or agency of the United States information necessary to enable it to carry out this section. Upon request of the Center, the head of that department or agency shall furnish that information to the Center on an agreed upon schedule.
      • `(B) DATA COLLECTION- In order to carry out its functions, the Center shall--
        • `(i) utilize existing information, both published and unpublished, where possible, collected and assessed either by its own staff or under other arrangements made in accordance with this section,
        • `(ii) carry out, or award grants or contracts for, original research and experimentation, where existing information is inadequate, and
        • `(iii) adopt procedures allowing any interested party to submit information for the use by the Center and Commission under subsection (b) in making reports and recommendations.
      • `(C) ACCESS OF GAO TO INFORMATION- The Comptroller General shall have unrestricted access to all deliberations, records, and nonproprietary data of the Center and Commission under subsection (b), immediately upon request.
      • `(D) PERIODIC AUDIT- The Center and Commission under subsection (b) shall be subject to periodic audit by the Comptroller General.
I am not seeing the "tell Granny she has to die" section. Nor am I seeing the part where folks can't get their own insurance to cover w/e perceived gaps in coverage there are.

Please point out the relevant language that gives the commission the ability to make decisions about Granny's medical care.


Disclaimer:
Before ppl decide that I am in favor of something I am not, please recognize that I am just pointing out a lack of evidence.
 
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