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Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

apdst said:
No one ever said that anyone getting euthanized. That's an invented statement that has been added to the comments from the Liberal side of the argument.
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Actually, American has been saying it for quite some time.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Except for those at the butt end of the spending that don't get help because a portion went to counseling. If ALL of the money is supposed to get spent then you are taking away from someone in the end.
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If the counseling saves money, then there is more for health care.
 
Redress said:
If the counseling saves money, then there is more for health care.
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Assuming a good chunk of people agree to stop receiving care after the counseling. But if the amount of people willing to commit suicide by refusing care is less than the effort they put into suicide counselors... Then the counseling takes from care.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Assuming a good chunk of people agree to stop receiving care after the counseling. But if the amount of people willing to commit suicide by refusing care is less than the effort they put into suicide counselors... Then the counseling takes from care.
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This is true, but I think it will save money. I doubt any one can say for absolutely sure, but it seems very likely.
 
I think it is just a ploy to create easy jobs and shortchange medicare with homesteading and tap-funnel tactics.
 
celticlord said:
These are Dear Leader's words. Each and every one of them. Moral issues are cost issues in his demented little brain.
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You really don't get it.

I don't know what your life experiences are in terms of dealing with the natural death a parent or grandparent, but having a clear medical directive that spells out for the family and a hospital what to do in various EOL situations is so important.

Can't you imagine how painful it would be for a family to wrestle with the difficult care decisions when there is no medical directive.

Natural death can be prolonged if that is what the patient wants. If a person without family enters a state sponsored care facility with moderate dementia and other typical heath issues, then isn't it both sensible and moral to have a discussion about EOL and quality of life?

You really want Obama's words to mean something they don't. Given what we know about his life experience with his mother's death, I say he is coming from a place of compassion and a pragmatic understanding about EOL choices.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Assuming a good chunk of people agree to stop receiving care after the counseling. But if the amount of people willing to commit suicide by refusing care is less than the effort they put into suicide counselors... Then the counseling takes from care.
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I can't believe how little people really understand about this. You all must be really young and you're parents are all active and healthy.

Natural death comes in many forms. Several of which can be long and painful. It's not about suicide or suicide counselors--jeez that is naive.

It's a very simple series of questions that help a person better define quality of life. With some medical conditions, the questions can be more specific regarding pain management.

Nobody is committing suicide. Do you understand that the human body can be kept alive a long time with feeding tubes and life support machines? That is prolonging a natural death--appropriate in certain situations, but in most natural death situations, the patient should decide how much or how little advanced medical care they want.

But with advanced dementia or total incapacitation -- how can they do that? For the most part, we're talking about patients who are mostly non-responsive but can still chew and swallow there own food. Of course you feed them for as long as you can, but what do you when the can't chew and swallow. If there is no medical directive or family--then what else can a state run facility do? Feeding tube. Adult diapers.

The most common natural death is pneumonia. You stop walking, liquid and bacteria form in your lungs, and the 'old person's friend', pneumonia, comes to visit. Now, a hospital can pump you full of antibiotics, lower the pain meds and do hourly breathing treatments so you can have a fighting chance. But what do you suppose happens to the brain during the long painful 'fight' with pneumonia, being deprived of oxygen between the breathing treatments? Mild dementia becomes advanced dementia. You can no longer control bodily functions or communicate, don't recognize anyone or know your name, but you 'beat' the pneumonia.

Are you starting to understand the quality of life issues involved with natural death? Compassion. Dignity. Pain management. All according to the patient's wishes. Are you against that?
 
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Redress said:
If the counseling saves money, then there is more for health care.
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You mean like if they push the euthanasia option strongly?

Or just tell them there's no money for old men?

What do you think happens when a system with a limited budget enacts to serve all the health needs of a nation on the promise that everyone is covered 100%? Outside of the obvious lie, since it's not physically possible, what do you think they immediately start doing when the nameless bureaucrat gets his accounts?

Why do you people think a nameless and unfireable civil service desk jockey is going to be more helpful to you than a nameless fireable privately employed desk jockey?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
You mean like if they push the euthanasia option strongly?

Or just tell them there's no money for old men?

What do you think happens when a system with a limited budget enacts to serve all the health needs of a nation on the promise that everyone is covered 100%? Outside of the obvious lie, since it's not physically possible, what do you think they immediately start doing when the nameless bureaucrat gets his accounts?

Why do you people think a nameless and unfireable civil service desk jockey is going to be more helpful to you than a nameless fireable privately employed desk jockey?
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Considering that it is mostly going to be the family doctor doing the counseling, do you really think this is likely? Oh wait, it's Scarecrow, you probably do...
 
This is the kind of fare they'll be playing in Messiah-Care waiting rooms:

I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet my bed
I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I said dead than wet my bed
Oh, I'd rather be gone--Than carry on
I'd rather go away--Than feel this way
Oh, I'd rather be there--Where you haven't got a care
And you're better off dead--Though it doesn't seem fair
Oh, I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet than wet my bed
I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet than wet my bed

(Ladies)
I'd rather keep my health--and dress myself
But you're better off dead than sitting on a shelf

(Men)I'll tie my tie 'till the day I die
But if I have to be fed then I'd rather be dead

And when he takes my hand on the very last day
I will understand because it's better that way
Oh! It's nice to be alive--When the dream comes true
You'll be better off dead--It could happen to you
Oh! I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet my bed
I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet than wet my bed

- "I'd Rather Be Dead", Nilsson, Son of Schmillson.
 
Redress said:
Considering that it is mostly going to be the family doctor doing the counseling, do you really think this is likely? Oh wait, it's Scarecrow, you probably do...
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I'm not stupid enough to believe the government. For some reason all the fools pushing this nonsense can't seem to look at the 80 year history of government "helping" us. They want to live in the dreamland they entered when they voted for their Messiah and want to ignore the harsh realities of a world with limited resources, not to mention the fact that my paycheck isn't their resource.

You happy with losing 20% of your pay, or more, to fund Messiah-Care?

Or are you silly enough to deny that's what has to happen?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
I'm not stupid enough to believe the government. For some reason all the fools pushing this nonsense can't seem to look at the 80 year history of government "helping" us. They want to live in the dreamland they entered when they voted for their Messiah and want to ignore the harsh realities of a world with limited resources, not to mention the fact that my paycheck isn't their resource.

You happy with losing 20% of your pay, or more, to fund Messiah-Care?

Or are you silly enough to deny that's what has to happen?
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Id be happy if people did not have to go bankrupt over medical bills and then have the rest of us cover all those bills.
 
hazlnut said:
I can't believe how little people really understand about this. You all must be really young and you're parents are all active and healthy.

Natural death comes in many forms. Several of which can be long and painful. It's not about suicide or suicide counselors--jeez that is naive.

It's a very simple series of questions that help a person better define quality of life. With some medical conditions, the questions can be more specific regarding pain management.

Nobody is committing suicide. Do you understand that the human body can be kept alive a long time with feeding tubes and life support machines? That is prolonging a natural death--appropriate in certain situations, but in most natural death situations, the patient should decide how much or how little advanced medical care they want.

But with advanced dementia or total incapacitation -- how can they do that? For the most part, we're talking about patients who are mostly non-responsive but can still chew and swallow there own food. Of course you feed them for as long as you can, but what do you when the can't chew and swallow. If there is no medical directive or family--then what else can a state run facility do? Feeding tube. Adult diapers.

The most common natural death is pneumonia. You stop walking, liquid and bacteria form in your lungs, and the 'old person's friend', pneumonia, comes to visit. Now, a hospital can pump you full of antibiotics, lower the pain meds and do hourly breathing treatments so you can have a fighting chance. But what do you suppose happens to the brain during the long painful 'fight' with pneumonia, being deprived of oxygen between the breathing treatments? Mild dementia becomes advanced dementia. You can no longer control bodily functions or communicate, don't recognize anyone or know your name, but you 'beat' the pneumonia.

Are you starting to understand the quality of life issues involved with natural death? Compassion. Dignity. Pain management. All according to the patient's wishes. Are you against that?
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I had a grandma that died from stomach cancer. She was the only person I know of in my life that could be labeled as perfect from what can be shown. I was there to council her. So was my dad. And my sisters. And a lot of her other family. She received care until she couldn't go on anymore. Her last words to me are the most inspirational I have. A councilor for our family would have been odd.

Although I do feel for those who have no family and have absolutely none to talk to.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
This is the kind of fare they'll be playing in Messiah-Care waiting rooms:

I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet my bed
I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I said dead than wet my bed
Oh, I'd rather be gone--Than carry on
I'd rather go away--Than feel this way
Oh, I'd rather be there--Where you haven't got a care
And you're better off dead--Though it doesn't seem fair
Oh, I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet than wet my bed
I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet than wet my bed

(Ladies)
I'd rather keep my health--and dress myself
But you're better off dead than sitting on a shelf

(Men)I'll tie my tie 'till the day I die
But if I have to be fed then I'd rather be dead

And when he takes my hand on the very last day
I will understand because it's better that way
Oh! It's nice to be alive--When the dream comes true
You'll be better off dead--It could happen to you
Oh! I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet my bed
I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead
I'd rather be dead than wet than wet my bed

- "I'd Rather Be Dead", Nilsson, Son of Schmillson.
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You get a thanks just for referencing a great album. "Joy" was my fav from it though.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
I had a grandma that died from stomach cancer. She was the only person I know of in my life that could be labeled as perfect from what can be shown. I was there to council her. So was my dad. And my sisters. And a lot of her other family. She received care until she couldn't go on anymore. Her last words to me are the most inspirational I have. A councilor for our family would have been odd.

Although I do feel for those who have no family and have absolutely none to talk to.
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That's who the provision was for. It's not about burdening the state or society with an expensive prolonged death. It's about society reaching out in a sensible and compassionate way to those who have no one.

With my grandmother, it was pancreatic cancer. She was in her own bed at home surround by her family when she took her final breath. The counseling and advice from the hospital 3 weeks prior was most welcome.
 
Redress said:
In theory, I would think this saves more money than it costs. I suspect most people want a limit to how much care they are given while terminal and/or in a vegetative state, which is very expensive care.
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If anything, it will get this sort of crap out of our courts where it really has no right to be as it is. Clear, legal documentation of wants and desires will prevent for the most part associated end of life issues between families from backing up the judicial system.
 
obvious Child said:
If anything, it will get this sort of crap out of our courts where it really has no right to be as it is. Clear, legal documentation of wants and desires will prevent for the most part associated end of life issues between families from backing up the judicial system.
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Since when has legal documentation ever kept something out of the courts?
 
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