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Thread: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    No you didn't. The end-of-life provision in the bill was created by Johnny Issakson, a Georgia Republican Senator. And no, it would not have euthanized the elderly.
    What is harder? Taking care of old people that are about to die. Or talking to old people that are about to die? Now if you use medicare to pay for this talking. Do you think more people are going to want to care or talk? Taking one penny away from actual care and handing it to counseling is taking away someones health care.

    I doubt the government would allow the counseling to get so big that it depleted health funds... but... but...
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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    I find it weird that the argument supporting Obama wanting to kill grandma is that it would save money. Can anybody point to even a single action on Obama's part that makes it seem like he's the least bit concerned about saving even a single dollar? He's taken the US's irresponsible spending to a whole new level, why would that stop when it comes to treating grandma?

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Why should I pay for her desires to be put on paper, let her or her family pay for it.

    So sayeth the not very compassionate and tragically uniformed conservative.

    American: How much does it cost to keep a patient without family or medical directives alive on the various types of life support for 1 day? (Remember this is medicare, so it's your tax dime)

    Now, how much does it cost for 1 counseling session to help that same person make sensible plans regarding EOL and quality of life that a hospital/Dr. can keep on file?

    Tell you what, I'll pay for the counseling.

    Compassion and dignity can be cost effective.

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    So sayeth the not very compassionate and tragically uniformed conservative.

    American: How much does it cost to keep a patient without family or medical directives alive on the various types of life support for 1 day? (Remember this is medicare, so it's your tax dime)

    Now, how much does it cost for 1 counseling session to help that same person make sensible plans regarding EOL and quality of life that a hospital/Dr. can keep on file?

    Tell you what, I'll pay for the counseling.

    Compassion and dignity can be cost effective.
    Your assumption is that the person will of course choose to die and relieve you of the cost of their care... or are you admitting that the purpose of these counseling sessions is to get the person to agree to die, to relieve you of the cost of their care?

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    I have a PDF of HR3200 and that phrase isn't in that bill.... or maybe I should say that the "find" function couldn't find it in that bill, could you tell me where to find it?
    Title IV, Subtitle A, Section 1401, et seq. It's actually titled the "Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission".

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    So sayeth the not very compassionate and tragically uniformed conservative.

    American: How much does it cost to keep a patient without family or medical directives alive on the various types of life support for 1 day? (Remember this is medicare, so it's your tax dime)

    Now, how much does it cost for 1 counseling session to help that same person make sensible plans regarding EOL and quality of life that a hospital/Dr. can keep on file?

    Tell you what, I'll pay for the counseling.

    Compassion and dignity can be cost effective.
    Only if the person is ok with dying. What about someone who does not want to die?

    Your "compassion" is for your wallet and nothing else--which drains any dignity from the decision.

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Your assumption is that the person will of course choose to die and relieve you of the cost of their care... or are you admitting that the purpose of these counseling sessions is to get the person to agree to die, to relieve you of the cost of their care?
    For those who choose not to have life extending techniques used, there is no significant change in cost. For those who choose not to be put on life support, or whatever, there is a savings. How much is highly debatable, but it should be more than the cost of the program I suspect.

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    I find it weird that the argument supporting Obama wanting to kill grandma is that it would save money. Can anybody point to even a single action on Obama's part that makes it seem like he's the least bit concerned about saving even a single dollar? He's taken the US's irresponsible spending to a whole new level, why would that stop when it comes to treating grandma?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...pagewanted=all

    I don’t know how much that hip replacement cost. I would have paid out of pocket for that hip replacement just because she’s my grandmother. Whether, sort of in the aggregate, society making those decisions to give my grandmother, or everybody else’s aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they’re terminally ill is a sustainable model, is a very difficult question. If somebody told me that my grandmother couldn’t have a hip replacement and she had to lie there in misery in the waning days of her life — that would be pretty upsetting.
    So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?

    I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.
    These are Dear Leader's words. Each and every one of them. Moral issues are cost issues in his demented little brain.

    Of course, the presumption is that government must be involved in providing health care, therefore the government must have a say in the cost of health care, therefore the government must have a say in what is and is not "sustainable"--and how very clever of Dear Leader to avoid using the more accurate language addressing who is and is not sustainable.

    The only moral conclusion that can be drawn from the dilemma is that government has no role to play in delivering health care, or paying for it. Absolutely none. It's not an issue government has the competence to address.

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Your assumption is that the person will of course choose to die and relieve you of the cost of their care... or are you admitting that the purpose of these counseling sessions is to get the person to agree to die, to relieve you of the cost of their care?
    No, it's to have a medical directive and/or medical proxy in place to allow a persons wishes to be carried out.

    I really think a lot of people do not understand how this works.

    It's a series of questions that help you to define for yourself what is quality of life. It is different for everyone. But people with advanced dementia and Alzheimer's can not legally make those decisions. As well as someone incapacitated by a stroke or massive heart heart attack.

    So, without advanced medical directives, what does a hospital do? How does a family know what grandma wanted if they never talked about it?

    I am dealing with this exact issue with my mother. When she was first diagnosed with Alzheimer in 2002, a very specific advanced medical directive was drawn up. Without it, the decisions my sister and I have to make would much more difficult. With it, we know that we are carrying out her wishes.

    Not everyone can afford an attorney or private counselor. In CA, the hospice care is outstanding, but expensive. The state pays for a lot of this type of care. I believe it's important that the family, the hospice worker, and the state to know exactly what the patients wishes are with respect to quality of life, dignity, and advance life support.

    It is very disappointing that something compassionate and practical is being dropped from the bill.

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    Re: Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    For those who choose not to have life extending techniques used, there is no significant change in cost. For those who choose not to be put on life support, or whatever, there is a savings. How much is highly debatable, but it should be more than the cost of the program I suspect.
    Except for those at the butt end of the spending that don't get help because a portion went to counseling. If ALL of the money is supposed to get spent then you are taking away from someone in the end.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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