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Thread: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    I'm of the mind that people should default to the frame of mind in these matters that they would have had before 9/11. No offense to Europe; I realize that 9/11 is not a European matter, but certainly it has had an effect on Islamic sensitivity. If this headscarf has shown to be a detriment to her abilities as a player, that is one thing. If not, it is reactionary foolishness.
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
    I'm of the mind that people should default to the frame of mind in these matters that they would have had before 9/11. No offense to Europe; I realize that 9/11 is not a European matter, but certainly it has had an effect on Islamic sensitivity. If this headscarf has shown to be a detriment to her abilities as a player, that is one thing. If not, it is reactionary foolishness.
    Oh come on. 9/11 wasn't just an attack on America, it was an attack on the West, and ill always remember the events of that aweful day as the worst thing to ever happen in my life time. Ive taken a minute silence every year on that day. Ill do it this year, and the next, and for as long as we remember it.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 08-20-09 at 10:38 PM.
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Why would anyone care what a woman decides to wear when they go swimming?

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Oh come on. 9/11 wasn't just an attack on America, it was an attack on the West, and ill always remember the events of that aweful day as the worst thing to ever happen in my life time. Ive taken a minute silence every year on that day. Ill do it this year, and the next, and for as long as we remember it.
    Granted. Thanks, but still you have to admit that whether a young woman wears a headscarf while playing basketball, basketball!!, is irrelevant to the issues surrounding 9/11 and/or Islamic fundamentalism. If we really wanted to embrace progressivism in the face of Islamic fundamentalism, we would accept, joyfully, this young woman's place and identity in team sports.

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Does France ban other immigrants from wearing their native clothing styles? Like the Indian Salwar or Sari, and headscarves for instance? I mean, if they're wearing that ****, obviously they aren't integrated and that clothing must be banned in order to force them to conform to their new society and leave all their culture behind them.

    So, do they ban native clothing from other cultures?

    What about natural born citizens who wish to wear native clothing from other cultures? Is that banned too?

    Nun habits? Do they ban those? Those are pretty oppressive, having to cover their hair and all and the whole black and white thing.

    Or is all that "integration" crap just total bull**** after all and merely a means of discriminating against Muslim women who choose to wear traditional clothing?

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    of discriminating against Muslim women who choose to wear traditional clothing?
    It is pretty obvious its discrimination.

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I see it as a step towards allowing there integration better. Its a radical sect of Islam and to be quiet frank it will send a message across and hopefully either make them change there ways and integrate with the French society better or make them leave the country. Either way works fine for us. There is a huge integration issue here in Europe and if we don't work to stem it now it will lead to our down fall. The French approach may seem harsh, but its necessary in keeping the native culture intact and that is Sarkozy's obligation to his country.
    So your goal for integration is to disparage and discriminate against a groups religion, and doing that is going to cause them to integrate into the society? I have a better idea, don't keep them poor! Let them work, let them participate, let them become part of the culture. Instead, especially in France, the Muslim immigrents are kept in the poorest of conditions and because of the socialist working system they aren't allowed into better jobs and aren't allowed to participate in society with everyone else. They're purposefully left out and discriminated against. I think if you want to really address issues of integration, you have to turn towards your own policies first. The French are assholes to the Muslims, hands down. They do it on purpose, they hate them. This new law is just more along those lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Thats what you like to think. Your right about the government technically having no power but, it has to be granted by a parliament/congress, and thats where the governments power is controlled. But do you think parliament represents the people as well as it could? Of course not. It would be physically impossible and politically impossible to put everything to popular vote, but until then i disagree with the notion they need consent of the people.
    Not everything can be put to a popular vote, we have government to manage certain things. But it must be reminded about who is in charge and it's important to understand the necessities of fighting it when it which to encroach upon the rights and liberties of its people.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    No, its political tactics and the Americans have been at it ever since Clinton. Im not talking major violation of our rights or the consitution, but small violations and restrictions here and there.
    That's a horribly fascist statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Sometimes it is neccessary for the government to inact improperly by restricting our freedoms for the betting of our society. Ask me to think of an example and ill say none because im a capitalist and i find it totally unacceptable, but i can justify it in this case.
    I honestly cannot understand your logic. You're authorizing improper government action against the rights and liberties of the People. It's terrible police state, big brother style fascism. You can't see that? If you're not free, you're a slave and your arguing that it's ok for the government to enslave certain people. That's the end all be all of your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    How can you even compare? Everything in Europe is far more centralized, and has nothing to do with federated governments.
    Proper government is not limited to the United States. There are differences between Europe and America, but that doesn't mean that proper government has no place in Europe. Proper government is not limited to the United States. All government must be proper, must act by the rights and liberties of its people, ensure the blessings of freedom to posterity. It's not just the USA, everyone deserves proper government aimed at the proliferation of the rights and liberties of the People.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So your goal for integration is to disparage and discriminate against a groups religion, and doing that is going to cause them to integrate into the society?
    Its a radical sect of Islam. We discriminate against terrorists, don't we? Plus, it isn't discrimination since there interpetation to Islam does not have an official status.

    I have a better idea, don't keep them poor! Let them work, let them participate, let them become part of the culture. Instead, especially in France, the Muslim immigrents are kept in the poorest of conditions and because of the socialist working system they aren't allowed into better jobs and aren't allowed to participate in society with everyone else.
    Thats because they choose not to work, learn the language or integrate. They live in Europe without even learning the language, most of them. And thats the Turks! So imagine how much more conservative these bunch are. Dont move to a country if your not already familiar with the language or cultural ways, otherwise your asking for trouble.

    They're purposefully left out and discriminated against. I think if you want to really address issues of integration, you have to turn towards your own policies first.
    Can you prove this fact? Your just making ridiculous accusations while remaining ignorant as to WHY they are left out; they havent integrated with US, or learnt OUR language. If they cannot do that, how can we invite them in?


    Not everything can be put to a popular vote, we have government to manage certain things. But it must be reminded about who is in charge and it's important to understand the necessities of fighting it when it which to encroach upon the rights and liberties of its people.
    If the people didnt believe a certain law made a neccessary compromise to a certain right, they will seek to enroach that law made. This is not the case with the Bhurka ban, the people have that choice, and they dont use it, because the French also share with the government its need and that feeling of importance to preserve the native culture which is being trashed by 3rd world citizens.



    That's a horribly fascist statement.
    No, im saying small restrictions of freedoms and rights have been HAPPENING here and there in the US. Im not saying that should happen, thats totally wrong. Eg; the hate speech.



    I honestly cannot understand your logic. You're authorizing improper government action against the rights and liberties of the People. It's terrible police state, big brother style fascism. You can't see that?
    How is it fascism when the government inacts a law that affects a small minority in the country to help stem a native culture that is receding and social tensions in France that is being stirred by such people who refuse to integrate, when the majority of those French people in the country are accepting of such a ban?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  9. #249
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Its a radical sect of Islam. We discriminate against terrorists, don't we? Plus, it isn't discrimination since there interpetation to Islam does not have an official status.
    No it's not, you're discriminating against someone who wanted to wear a swimsuit with a hood on it; not a group of terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Thats because they choose not to work, learn the language or integrate. They live in Europe without even learning the language, most of them. And thats the Turks! So imagine how much more conservative these bunch are. Dont move to a country if your not already familiar with the language or cultural ways, otherwise your asking for trouble.
    They can't get proper jobs, they can't integrate into society. They are kept in the slums and not allowed to improve their lot. You have to allow free access to the society and workplaces if you want people to integrate into it. We're not talking on the whole about terrorists or anything like that. On the whole, Muslims in France are terrible disparaged against, and until that ends you aren't going to foster integration into the society.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Can you prove this fact? Your just making ridiculous accusations while remaining ignorant as to WHY they are left out; they havent integrated with US, or learnt OUR language. If they cannot do that, how can we invite them in?
    All you have to do is take an honest look at the system. The slums are inhabited primarily by the Muslim community. It's hard to break into jobs because of the horrible amounts of socialism which permeate the French job markets. Sure, they can try harder to integrate but France has to make it possible to integrate as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    If the people didnt believe a certain law made a neccessary compromise to a certain right, they will seek to enroach that law made. This is not the case with the Bhurka ban, the people have that choice, and they dont use it, because the French also share with the government its need and that feeling of importance to preserve the native culture which is being trashed by 3rd world citizens.
    Well teach them to surrender, and they'll fit right in with the French.
    hahah
    j/k
    But some of these bans are against free expression and practice of religion. I think there can be reasonable claims with IDs and things of that nature, but just wearing a swimsuit with a hood on it goes over the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    No, im saying small restrictions of freedoms and rights have been HAPPENING here and there in the US. Im not saying that should happen, thats totally wrong. Eg; the hate speech.
    There's no law against hate speech in America, those laws are stupid and encroach on the right to freedom of speech. Hate crime legislation, which we do have, is also right out. A crime is a crime and should be treated as such. It doesn't matter if it was perpetrated because of racism or any other form of hate, the crime is to be punished if you infringed upon the rights of others. End of story.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    How is it fascism when the government inacts a law that affects a small minority in the country to help stem a native culture that is receding and social tensions in France that is being stirred by such people who refuse to integrate, when the majority of those French people in the country are accepting of such a ban?
    You're talking of freedom through the health and power of the State, that's fascism. You don't enslave your freedom to the whims of the State, that's fascism. The State isn't the end all be all of legitimate power, the People are. When you start making arguments based on the prosperity of the State at the cost of liberty and freedom of the individual, you are walking in the realm of fascism.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No it's not, you're discriminating against someone who wanted to wear a swimsuit with a hood on it; not a group of terrorists.
    And thats called...clothes discrimination? I call it protecting a native culture being trashed by those who cannot integrate. These types of clothing due to there radicalist ideas is a barrier to that integration.


    They can't get proper jobs, they can't integrate into society. They are kept in the slums and not allowed to improve their lot. You have to allow free access to the society and workplaces if you want people to integrate into it. We're not talking on the whole about terrorists or anything like that. On the whole, Muslims in France are terrible disparaged against, and until that ends you aren't going to foster integration into the society.
    Thats because the Muslims refuse to adapt to our culture, learn our language, and stick with there own lot. So they move to an area with a high Muslim density, and they are all poor, and then what happens? It turns into a Muslim slum. That has nothing to do with our deliberate neglect of these people.



    All you have to do is take an honest look at the system. The slums are inhabited primarily by the Muslim community. It's hard to break into jobs because of the horrible amounts of socialism which permeate the French job markets. Sure, they can try harder to integrate but France has to make it possible to integrate as well.
    No, integrating yourself is a personal and state affair, deciding to integrate yourself is a personal affair, and there is nothing the state can do if these people choose to stick with there own lot and not learn the language. Your talking crap now Ikari. Those Muslims in France who have learnt the language have managed to find themselves a descent job and lifestyle in France. It has nothing to do with "European racism". There crappy lifestyle is as a result of there own ignorance.


    Well teach them to surrender, and they'll fit right in with the French.
    hahah
    j/k
    But some of these bans are against free expression and practice of religion. I think there can be reasonable claims with IDs and things of that nature, but just wearing a swimsuit with a hood on it goes over the line.
    Actually im well against them banning this swimsuit. I think that it is a step over the line, and Koriymr the Rat helped me change my mind and reach that conclusion.


    You're talking of freedom through the health and power of the State, that's fascism. You don't enslave your freedom to the whims of the State, that's fascism. The State isn't the end all be all of legitimate power, the People are. When you start making arguments based on the prosperity of the State at the cost of liberty and freedom of the individual, you are walking in the realm of fascism.
    No i believe in that notion. All im saying is, thats not exactly the truth is it? I told you, i like to consider myself as a pro-capitalist liberal. But the people in our Western Democracies arent actually the legitemate power unless they use force, because our current system of Congress and Parliament is hardly representing the people as well as it could. Sure, congress/parliament is the voice of the people, and therefore stops or passes any law by the government there accordingly, but again, congress/parliament doesn't actually represent the people sufficiently enough unless everything was put to popular vote. Things pass that we as the people are against, like hate speech at the time, stimulus bills, etc, but, hey. They passed.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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