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Thread: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    didn't you post a road sign in Belgium once, that was written in like five different languages, lol
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
    didn't you post a road sign in Belgium once, that was written in like five different languages, lol
    They are in 4 languages only in some parts of Brussels (the train stations, the european parliament...) but usually they're just bilingual


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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    The problem is when people import their theocracy in our countries. I'm serious, most people here are atheists and very liberal, and tensions are expectable when people who think like our great-grand-parents settle here.
    I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. People can try to import theocracy as much as they want. Less you're a weak country, it's not going to happen. People try to make this case in America...the Muslims are going to come and install Islamic law. Which is stupid because it won't happen. Muslims are of course free to exercise and express their religion so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process, but we're not going to change from a secular government.


    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    You're kidding? It's the visible symbol of the ultra-conservatism of some people. Banning it won't solve the root of the problem, but at least it shows them that traditional-very conservative people are not welcome.
    You seem to be really convinced that adults cannot make up their own minds. It's kinda condescending don't you think? There's nothing wrong with a swimming suit with a hood on it. Trying to make it into some sign of oppression or whatever is just downright silly. Adults made up their mind, let them. Their choice. So long as these things aren't enforced via law, there's no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    In my country religion is a private matter and we consider that you should not wear external signs of faith. We've removed the crosses from our schools and courts, we can expect newcomers not to do the contrary. A swimming pool is a public place, religion has nothing to do there.
    In my country, religion is a private matter and we consider people free to practice and express their religion as they see fit so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process.

    To be honest, I find your take on it sickening and against the fundamentals of freedom and liberty.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. People can try to import theocracy as much as they want. Less you're a weak country, it's not going to happen. People try to make this case in America...the Muslims are going to come and install Islamic law. Which is stupid because it won't happen. Muslims are of course free to exercise and express their religion so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process, but we're not going to change from a secular government.
    I'm not saying that they want to impose us their theocracy, but they don't integrate neither, and still live in "bubbles" of theocracy. You have whole districts in Brussels (but also in other cities in Europe) where 80 or 90% of the population comes from Morroco or Turkey, and they keep all of their customs. When you walk there, it's not Europe anymore!

    I'm against that because I don't see the point of emigrating if it's to re-create the exact same place you left, with of course all the benefits of the host society (high unemployment insurances, free healthcare...)



    You seem to be really convinced that adults cannot make up their own minds. It's kinda condescending don't you think? There's nothing wrong with a swimming suit with a hood on it. Trying to make it into some sign of oppression or whatever is just downright silly. Adults made up their mind, let them. Their choice. So long as these things aren't enforced via law, there's no problem.

    We (in the Western societies) live the "2nd modernity". People are free, even inside the family: you can marry with whoever you want and the society doesn't have anything to say if you are homosexual or transexual...it's your private life and no one cares. The main characteristic is that you decide

    However, that has not always been like that. Until 1960, our grandparents lived in the "1st modernity", where people were free, but not inside the family circle. And a few centuries ago, it was the "traditional" society where the family was totally included in the rest of the society. In both cases, inside the family, there was
    - hierarchy => you are submitted to your father, everyone has its own place
    - heteronomy => you don't decide, you obey an external rule decided by the society
    - domination of the tradition => the goal of life is to respect the tradition and transmit it to your kids
    Furthermore, while weddings are based on love in the 2nd modernity families, they were based on reason (money, heritage, power) in the 1st modernity & traditional families


    While some Muslim people (the "integrated" ones) may live in the 2nd modernity, most of them still live in the "traditional" or "1st modernity" families. You can see that not only because they wear the most retrograde clothes, but also because, for example, they mary exclusively with countrymen. Did you know that only 3% of the Turks in Brussels marry with non-turks? From times to times, in the newspapers, you can read that a muslim girl commited suicide because she was forced to marry a 50 years old dude who had already 2 other wives.

    Maybe that's not always the case, but that seems to happen quite frequently, and this is a sign of retrograde traditionalism that is contrary to our values and that is symbolized by clothes like the Burqa or the Burqini.


    In my country, religion is a private matter and we consider people free to practice and express their religion as they see fit so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process.

    To be honest, I find your take on it sickening and against the fundamentals of freedom and liberty.
    As it was said in a previous post, the discussion about the Burqa or Burqini aren't solely about a piece of cloth. There has been a massive immigration of foreigners the last 30 years, and like in the previous waves of immigration, there are tensions. But this time it's different: they are so many in some areas that they don't integrate at all, that's the real problem. They keep all their own customs and traditions, and many people here don't find it normal.

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    I'm not saying that they want to impose us their theocracy, but they don't integrate neither, and still live in "bubbles" of theocracy. You have whole districts in Brussels (but also in other cities in Europe) where 80 or 90% of the population comes from Morroco or Turkey, and they keep all of their customs. When you walk there, it's not Europe anymore!

    I'm against that because I don't see the point of emigrating if it's to re-create the exact same place you left, with of course all the benefits of the host society (high unemployment insurances, free healthcare...)


    We (in the Western societies) live the "2nd modernity". People are free, even inside the family: you can marry with whoever you want and the society doesn't have anything to say if you are homosexual or transexual...it's your private life and no one cares. The main characteristic is that you decide

    However, that has not always been like that. Until 1960, our grandparents lived in the "1st modernity", where people were free, but not inside the family circle. And a few centuries ago, it was the "traditional" society where the family was totally included in the rest of the society. In both cases, inside the family, there was
    - hierarchy => you are submitted to your father, everyone has its own place
    - heteronomy => you don't decide, you obey an external rule decided by the society
    - domination of the tradition => the goal of life is to respect the tradition and transmit it to your kids
    Furthermore, while weddings are based on love in the 2nd modernity families, they were based on reason (money, heritage, power) in the 1st modernity & traditional families


    While some Muslim people (the "integrated" ones) may live in the 2nd modernity, most of them still live in the "traditional" or "1st modernity" families. You can see that not only because they wear the most retrograde clothes, but also because, for example, they mary exclusively with countrymen. Did you know that only 3% of the Turks in Brussels marry with non-turks? From times to times, in the newspapers, you can read that a muslim girl commited suicide because she was forced to marry a 50 years old dude who had already 2 other wives.

    Maybe that's not always the case, but that seems to happen quite frequently, and this is a sign of retrograde traditionalism that is contrary to our values and that is symbolized by clothes like the Burqa or the Burqini.




    As it was said in a previous post, the discussion about the Burqa or Burqini aren't solely about a piece of cloth. There has been a massive immigration of foreigners the last 30 years, and like in the previous waves of immigration, there are tensions. But this time it's different: they are so many in some areas that they don't integrate at all, that's the real problem. They keep all their own customs and traditions, and many people here don't find it normal.
    ....Bub just highlighted the main reasons why our governments here in the West need to do more to protect our wavering European cultures and traditions. Of course, such moves also need to work in such a way that they can sway the immigrants into integrating better, by feeling more like "one of us". This good old Belgium friend of mine also told me once about the formation of places like China Town and Little Italy; the immigrants usualy just stick together and dont mix with the native populace to integrate and adapt with our own, native traditions, culture and ways. Eventually, they will integrate, as they have done, but one has to answer the question; is this a normal, slow process of adaption to Europe with the Muslims as we have seen in the past with the Italians, Chinese etc, or does Islam have an inherent inability to allow them to do it?

    If yes, then the EU needs to move in to tighten up immigration from non-EU members, and if they are to accept into the family a majority Muslim nation, they need to make sure that very nation is modern and progressive enough so as to make there migration within Europe as painless as possible.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 08-20-09 at 03:51 PM.
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    ....Bub just highlighted the main reasons why our governments here in the West need to do more to protect our wavering European cultures and traditions. Of course, such moves also need to work in such a way that they can sway the immigrants into integrating better, by feeling more like "one of us". This good old Belgium friend of mine also told me once about the formation of places like China Town and Little Italy; the immigrants usualy just stick together and dont mix with the native populace to integrate and adapt with our own, native traditions, culture and ways. Eventually, they will integrate, as they have done, but one has to answer the question; is this a normal, slow process of adaption to Europe with the Muslims as we have seen in the past with the Italians, Chinese etc, or does Islam have an inherent inability to allow them to do it?

    If yes, then the EU needs to move in to tighten up immigration from non-EU members, and if they are to accept into the family a majority Muslim nation, they need to make sure that very nation is modern and progressive enough so as to make there migration within Europe as painless as possible.
    Thanks!

    I'd like to add that it's not really about Islam, there are other factors (like 30% of unemployment in Brussels, or the fact that they're really numerous) that prevents their integration

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    I'm not saying that they want to impose us their theocracy, but they don't integrate neither, and still live in "bubbles" of theocracy. You have whole districts in Brussels (but also in other cities in Europe) where 80 or 90% of the population comes from Morroco or Turkey, and they keep all of their customs. When you walk there, it's not Europe anymore!

    I'm against that because I don't see the point of emigrating if it's to re-create the exact same place you left, with of course all the benefits of the host society (high unemployment insurances, free healthcare...)






    We (in the Western societies) live the "2nd modernity". People are free, even inside the family: you can marry with whoever you want and the society doesn't have anything to say if you are homosexual or transexual...it's your private life and no one cares. The main characteristic is that you decide

    However, that has not always been like that. Until 1960, our grandparents lived in the "1st modernity", where people were free, but not inside the family circle. And a few centuries ago, it was the "traditional" society where the family was totally included in the rest of the society. In both cases, inside the family, there was
    - hierarchy => you are submitted to your father, everyone has its own place
    - heteronomy => you don't decide, you obey an external rule decided by the society
    - domination of the tradition => the goal of life is to respect the tradition and transmit it to your kids
    Furthermore, while weddings are based on love in the 2nd modernity families, they were based on reason (money, heritage, power) in the 1st modernity & traditional families


    While some Muslim people (the "integrated" ones) may live in the 2nd modernity, most of them still live in the "traditional" or "1st modernity" families. You can see that not only because they wear the most retrograde clothes, but also because, for example, they mary exclusively with countrymen. Did you know that only 3% of the Turks in Brussels marry with non-turks? From times to times, in the newspapers, you can read that a muslim girl commited suicide because she was forced to marry a 50 years old dude who had already 2 other wives.

    Maybe that's not always the case, but that seems to happen quite frequently, and this is a sign of retrograde traditionalism that is contrary to our values and that is symbolized by clothes like the Burqa or the Burqini.




    As it was said in a previous post, the discussion about the Burqa or Burqini aren't solely about a piece of cloth. There has been a massive immigration of foreigners the last 30 years, and like in the previous waves of immigration, there are tensions. But this time it's different: they are so many in some areas that they don't integrate at all, that's the real problem. They keep all their own customs and traditions, and many people here don't find it normal.
    Integrate them! In America the average time for integration is something like 1.4 generations for Europeans, 1.6 for Hispanic. We don't have the Muslim population that France has, but we have relatively not problems with any religious sect. If people live in our culture, they will always end up American in the end within a few generations tops.

    One of France's problems is that they purposefully keep their Muslim population out of society and in the poorest areas of their country. You got to figure out how to handle the immigration and integration without infringing upon the rights of the individual. This whole swimsuit thing is over the line, it's xenophobic response aimed at oppression against a segment of their own population. Nothing more, nothing less. Y'all are gonna have to learn to deal or become fascist anti-theist governments like the commies.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Integrate them!
    We'd like to but it's difficult when around 50% of the population of Brussels is made of foreigners

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    We'd like to but it's difficult when around 50% of the population of Brussels is made of foreigners
    That's no excuse to infringe upon the rights of the individual as they are doing in France. You have to find a way to deal with it. But do so in a way which fosters freedom and liberty.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's no excuse to infringe upon the rights of the individual as they are doing in France. You have to find a way to deal with it. But do so in a way which fosters freedom and liberty.
    Do you also consider the ban on polygamy as being a breach to freedom & liberty?

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