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Thread: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

  1. #141
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    Is that really so much better than the burqini?
    Uh... yeah.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Adults can make up their own minds.
    People in traditional (euphemism for "backwarded ultraconservative people") families don't have choices, especially women. They dress the way they are told, they do what they are told, they marry the husband they are told.

    When they don't, they're killed.


    They don't really have a private life, they live for the community. The main goal of their life is to have kids and transmit the tradition.


    I'm not blaming the muslims only, such things have existed in Europe until a few generations ago

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    because nowadays marriage (in western countries only) is a choice, you can divorce
    I can only assume that you are intentionally holding onto a generalized and convenient perspective and ignoring western religious traditions and the way many women CHOOSE to conform to them.
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Well, that is really in a sense what is going on. One group of people sees the Burqa as a symbol representing something they disagree with. People love to try and ban symbols that they disagree with.

    In the same way, lots of people see nudity as representing sex, and since they are racked with guild regarding their own sexual nature, they try to ban such "shocking" symbolism.

    Personally I think people who want to go around naked should be free to do so.
    These are the rules of the society. It's important to be aware that they exist, and it's even very interesting to put words on them (because most of the times they're not "told", it's uncounscious)

    But the point is that when you enter a society, you abid its rules. That's called "assimilationism" and it's criticized, but I support it.


    The thing is that the argument for the ban thus far is not that the people wearing the Burka are offending other people's delicate sensibilities, but rather that they need to be controlled for their own good. That they need to be "liberated" by being forced to comply with rules regarding how they dress.

    A similar argument was used to justify slavery. The poor black "savages" were judged "irresponsible, immature, and childlike, hence needing white discipline for their own good"*

    Its just as wrongheaded now as it was then.

    That is a great point also!


    But there are many cases where people are forced to comply with rules for their own good, like the ban on drunk driving

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
    I can only assume that you are intentionally holding onto a generalized and convenient perspective and ignoring western religious traditions and the way many women CHOOSE to conform to them.
    It was the case until the 60's but not anymore

    Of course there are many social rules that we are "obliged" to follow, often unconsiously (the way you dress to go to the restaurant, for example) but you still have the choice not to obey, because we live in a modern society.

    It's often not the case in traditional families


    Let's take the example of mariage:
    - modern society -> you marry the guy you love (even if there are uncounsious social rules, like choosing a mate who has got the same socio-economic characteristic than you), and if you don't like him anymore you divorce. The central element of marriage is love and you are free to chose your partner

    - traditional society -> you marry the guy your parents have chosen. If you refuse, you're beaten, and if you want to divorce you're killed. The central element of marriage is to have kids and transmit them the traditions

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    These are the rules of the society. It's important to be aware that they exist, and it's even very interesting to put words on them (because most of the times they're not "told", it's uncounscious)

    But the point is that when you enter a society, you abid its rules. That's called "assimilationism" and it's criticized, but I support it.
    Having cultural customs on how to dress, what to eat, what to say, or how to think is all fine and natural, but when there are legal consequences for not following the crowd, the enforcing entity I find to be oppressive and thus inferior.

    That is a great point also!
    Thanks!

    But there are many cases where people are forced to comply with rules for their own good, like the ban on drunk driving
    The ban on drunk driving is not for your own good, it is to protect other people from being killed by your recklessness.

    A better example might be seatbelt laws, which are also oppressive, stupid and inferior.

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    These are the rules of the society. It's important to be aware that they exist, and it's even very interesting to put words on them (because most of the times they're not "told", it's uncounscious)

    But the point is that when you enter a society, you abid its rules. That's called "assimilationism" and it's criticized, but I support it.





    That is a great point also!


    But there are many cases where people are forced to comply with rules for their own good, like the ban on drunk driving
    Again, I think you must be intentionally ignoring how religion still holds a patriarchal sway over the lives of many women TODAY. In western culture.
    Check: Catholicism. Check: Judaism. Check: Mormonism. Check: Pentecostalism.
    I don't see anyone rushing to curtail the choices that these women make in conforming to patriarchal religious traditions. Let alone the greater sway patriarchal tradition still holds over western culture as a whole. That's getting into another conversation, though.

    My point is, whether or not a woman wants to wear a hijab-like covering (not a burqa) to the swimming pool is not the problem. It's like punishing women who refrain from praying at the wailing wall because it is not orthodox. Are there any threads on DP about that oppression?

    Catz brought up the real issue which is education and assimilation - not easily attainable in first generation immigrants, but moreso over time. Europe has a real issue with the immigration of fundamentalist Muslim families, but punishing women for wearing the hijab as a means of confronting it is petty and stupid. Not to mention, the hijab is worn by independent women - women who are doctors and lawyers and scholars. Maybe they aren't the only ones who need help moving forward.
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
    Again, I think you must be intentionally ignoring how religion still holds a patriarchal sway over the lives of many women TODAY. In western culture.
    Check: Catholicism. Check: Judaism. Check: Mormonism. Check: Pentecostalism.
    I don't see anyone rushing to curtail the choices that these women make in conforming to patriarchal religious traditions. Let alone the greater sway patriarchal tradition still holds over western culture as a whole. That's getting into another conversation, though.
    Religion doesn't play any role in Europe anymore (at least in the young generations)


    My point is, whether or not a woman wants to wear a hijab-like covering (not a burqa) to the swimming pool is not the problem. It's like punishing women who refrain from praying at the wailing wall because it is not orthodox. Are there any threads on DP about that oppression?

    Catz brought up the real issue which is education and assimilation - not easily attainable in first generation immigrants, but moreso over time. Europe has a real issue with the immigration of fundamentalist Muslim families, but punishing women for wearing the hijab as a means of confronting it is petty and stupid. Not to mention, the hijab is worn by independent women - women who are doctors and lawyers and scholars. Maybe they aren't the only ones who need help moving forward
    You're right, the real issue is the lack assimilation. I think that it is due to the number of foreigners, the fact that they all live together, and the fact that they are often poors and feel rejected. And yes, the ban on burqa doesn't solve any of these issues.

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Just to be clear, it is my understanding that France (at least) has attempted to ban not the burqa, but the hijab and headscarves, from public schools.

    Saying burqa



    when what we are really talking about is a bathing suit that resembles the hijab



    is misleading.
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  10. #150
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    France is almost as embarrassing to the world as California.

    Dear god. What ****ing logic is there behind such a move? Cleaner pools? Bull****ing ****. The burkini is made of swimsuit material, iirc. The only other argument I've heard is that France is trying to "liberate" Muslim women by dictating what they can and cannot wear. How anyone could even attempt to defend such an asinine line of reasoning is beyond me.

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