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Thread: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

  1. #111
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Speaking of ID cards, during the French colonisation of Algeria, the army forced the Algerian women to remove their headscarves in order to have their identity pictures taken. The army photographer at that time was a guy called Marc Garanger (who I met a few years ago and we became friends).

    He published those pictures years later and they clearly show the great humiliation on the faces of these women who had never uncovered their hair in front of men before.

    here's one of those pictures, but if you google the name of the photgrapher you will find more.


    That is so sad.

    edit: I did a google search and a few questions arose. Who owns the rights to those photographs? Were they part of Granger's exhibition? (I didn't look through his webpage as there was a photo of a nude child on page 1, and did not wish to go further).
    Last edited by StandUpChuck; 08-14-09 at 02:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    You guys are weird.

  2. #112
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    That is so sad.

    edit: I did a google search and a few questions arose. Who owns the rights to those photographs? Were they part of Granger's exhibition? (I didn't look through his webpage as there was a photo of a nude child on page 1, and did not wish to go further).
    Under French copyright law, Garanger owns his photographs.

    He published a book and had several exhibitions. I met him when he had an exhibition in Holland in 2005. He recently returned to Algeria and found some of the people that he had photographed in the early 60-s.

    I wasn't aware that he has a webpage. I'd be interested to see,could you please provide me with the link ?
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
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  3. #113
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Under French copyright law, Garanger owns his photographs.

    He published a book and had several exhibitions. I met him when he had an exhibition in Holland in 2005. He recently returned to Algeria and found some of the people that he had photographed in the early 60-s.

    I wasn't aware that he has a webpage. I'd be interested to see,could you please provide me with the link ?
    I don't want to link it because of the nude pic of the child (sorry). All I did was type Mark Granger into google, and it was one of the first few webpages. so you can find it that way.

    My concern is this, Mira. He knew those women were humiliated having their photographs taken unveiled, yet he's making money off their images.

    When I first read your post and saw that photo, but heart broke a little. I wanted to find out more as it was a compelling story. Then I felt voyeuristic. Seeing their humiliated faces and messy hair splashed all over the www made me angry. Not just at the French gov't but more at Mark Granger for publishing these photos for everyone in the world to see. I think we needed to see the pics to understand, but it was at the cost of their dignity. It bothers me.
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    You guys are weird.

  4. #114
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    I don't want to link it because of the nude pic of the child (sorry). All I did was type Mark Granger into google, and it was one of the first few webpages. so you can find it that way.

    My concern is this, Mira. He knew those women were humiliated having their photographs taken unveiled, yet he's making money off their images.

    When I first read your post and saw that photo, but heart broke a little. I wanted to find out more as it was a compelling story. Then I felt voyeuristic. Seeing their humiliated faces and messy hair splashed all over the www made me angry. Not just at the French gov't but more at Mark Granger for publishing these photos for everyone in the world to see. I think we needed to see the pics to understand, but it was at the cost of their dignity. It bothers me.
    Will you PM me the link please ? the first page on google is this
    Marc Garanger: Algerian Women
    the Holland exhibition which was in 2004, my mistake, I remembered it to be in 2005.

    I had a long discussion with Marc about his pictures. He felt the need to show them in order to make a statement about the treatment of the colonising French toward the Algerians. He's a professional photographer, if you're worried about the fact that he published books and had exhibitions with those pictures, then you can say the same about any photographer, me being one of them. It is our JOB to witness, tell or denounce through our pictures. This is how we earn a living and with the living that we make we are able to continue to be witnesses. By the way, with very few exceptions, press photographers don't make a good living. Usually they recycle their earnings into travelling and taking more photographs.

    One detail though, photographers rarely make any money out of books or exhibitions and knowing Garanger personally, he lives in a very modest wooden house in the countryside, he's VERY far from being even slightly rich.

    edit: I just found his website which is simply a commercial site. Where do you see a naked child ?

    http://www.marcgaranger.com/client/page0.php
    Last edited by Mira; 08-14-09 at 03:46 PM.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
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  5. #115
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Mira, I come from a family of artists and was once a journalist, so I understand the duty to one's craft. It's my opinion that although he may have legally owned the rights to those photographs, he had a moral obligation to those women to only use them for the purpose for which they were intended - id cards. Anything other is exploitation.

    Having said that, there's no doubt I was moved by the images. The man has incredible talent, and nothing tells the story like those images.

    Cannot PM the link due to the image contained therein. Google search Mark Granger. Result #3.
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    You guys are weird.

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    Mira, I come from a family of artists and was once a journalist, so I understand the duty to one's craft. It's my opinion that although he may have legally owned the rights to those photographs, he had a moral obligation to those women to only use them for the purpose for which they were intended - id cards. Anything other is exploitation.

    Having said that, there's no doubt I was moved by the images. The man has incredible talent, and nothing tells the story like those images.

    Cannot PM the link due to the image contained therein. Google search Mark Granger. Result #3.
    I did google, result #3 and I found his official website. No naked kid there PM is private, I don't think you will be breaking any rules if you posted the link.

    Anyhow, I know what you're saying and his series of photographs of the Algerian women was very contoversial and angered many people.

    It's a subject that we often discuss among professionals of the press. What's the limit between witnessing and exposing people in humiliating situations ?

    I thought about Marc's pictures when I first saw them. When we look at the pictures with our Western eyes, all we see is the anger of the women. Not a single western man or woman will be seeing them with the attitude of a voyeur. He felt the need to make a statement with his work, his aim was not to show pin-ups of Algerian women or to make big bucks.

    But again, I understand what you're saying. This is a subject of a discussion on its own.

    edit: this really intreagued me, so I picked up my phone and called the old Marc. I told him about this discussion and asked him if he had taken photographs of nude kids. His answer was "huh"?
    Last edited by Mira; 08-14-09 at 04:26 PM.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  7. #117
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    That is so sad.

    edit: I did a google search and a few questions arose. Who owns the rights to those photographs? Were they part of Granger's exhibition? (I didn't look through his webpage as there was a photo of a nude child on page 1, and did not wish to go further).
    Were they humiliated because people could see their hair, just because they're heinous?

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's a public swimming pool...kids pee in those things. I don't think a full body swim suit is going to do much harm.
    Urine is sterile. Didn't you watch "Dodgeball"?

  9. #119
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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Urine is sterile. Didn't you watch "Dodgeball"?
    I still think it's well worse than a swimming suit with a hood.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: French pool bans 'burkini' swim

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I still think it's well worse than a swimming suit with a hood.
    You mean with the full body suit that can't show if the body hidden has taken a shower in the last year?

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