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Thread: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    No one should ever wish death upon the President, no matter how much you disagree with their political positions. I dislike both Bush and Obama to no end, but would never wish even a sore throat upon them.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No one else posted actual quotes by Jefferson. Why do I have to, all of a sudden?
    Because what you posted was ridiculous.

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Depends on how it was stated. Jefferson would approve of a mob saying they needed to take the President and string him up. Can't see Jefferson being supportive of some whack job saying someone else should take the President and string him up.

    If you read Jefferson's comment closely, you'll see he gives credit to the folks who, like himself and the other Founding Fathers, are willing to put their lives on the line for what they believed in. Folks who lack the courage to do that are better off just keeping their grumblings to themselves.
    I'd say you misinterpret what Jefferson said about watering the tree of liberty. You have to take into context what he meant in the full letter along with the historical significance of it.

    Lets all take the time to read the full quote before deciding what jefferson stated. It was not an open call for insurrection.

    From Thomas Jefferson to William Smith




    Paris, November 13, 1787

    DEAR SIR, -- I am now to acknoledge the receipt of your favors of October the 4th, 8th, & 26th. In the last you apologise for your letters of introduction to Americans coming here. It is so far from needing apology on your part, that it calls for thanks on mine. I endeavor to show civilities to all the Americans who come here, & will give me opportunities of doing it: and it is a matter of comfort to know from a good quarter what they are, & how far I may go in my attentions to them. Can you send me Woodmason's bills for the two copying presses for the M. de la Fayette, & the M. de Chastellux? The latter makes one article in a considerable account, of old standing, and which I cannot present for want of this article. -- I do not know whether it is to yourself or Mr. Adams I am to give my thanks for the copy of the new constitution. I beg leave through you to place them where due. It will be yet three weeks before I shall receive them from America. There are very good articles in it: & very bad. I do not know which preponderate. What we have lately read in the history of Holland, in the chapter on the Stadtholder, would have sufficed to set me against a chief magistrate eligible for a long duration, if I had ever been disposed towards one: & what we have always read of the elections of Polish kings should have forever excluded the idea of one continuable for life. Wonderful is the effect of impudent & persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen-yard in order. I hope in God this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted. -- You ask me if any thing transpires here on the subject of S. America? Not a word. I know that there are combustible materials there, and that they wait the torch only. But this country probably will join the extinguishers. -- The want of facts worth communicating to you has occasioned me to give a little loose to dissertation. We must be contented to amuse, when we cannot inform.
    Lets give some context here. In the beginning Jefferson was talking about what he read about the proposed bills for the constitution. He thought some were bad and some were good and feared giving too much power to the executive. His fear was that a president could raise an army only loyal to him. The next part:
    Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honorably conducted? I say nothing of its motives.
    This refers to the shays rebellion where people took up arms against the government. He then goes on to say

    They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness.
    The motives of the Shayites to Jefferson were founded in ignorance much like a lot of the shouters we're seeing at these town halls.

    What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.
    Jefferson then asks what remedy the people have but to take up arms. But in the following sentence he talks about what to do when people take up arms.

    The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them.
    Jefferson's solution to rebellion was to set people right on the facts then pardon them peacefully. He stood for a peaceful solutions not for armed insurrection.

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I don't think party has anything to do with it. I think Jefferson considered revolution the only way to maintain the society envisioned by the founders. I don't think he was joking about the blood of tyrannts and patriots. He knew very well his words would be measured. Do I wish the death of our president...no.
    So thise who called for Bush's death you think Jefferson would've also considered Patriots. This is odd to me as whenever such came up in the past and conservatives here called those people unamerican....even rev in the past few days I thi.k...I don't remember you touting Jeffersons words for why they are wrong.

    So while Jefferson mayve not cared about party, is it right to say you seem to on your use of his words as a defense ?

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So thise who called for Bush's death you think Jefferson would've also considered Patriots. This is odd to me as whenever such came up in the past and conservatives here called those people unamerican....even rev in the past few days I thi.k...I don't remember you touting Jeffersons words for why they are wrong.

    So while Jefferson mayve not cared about party, is it right to say you seem to on your use of his words as a defense ?
    Actually neither side is right. If you read jefferson's full quote he does not say armed insurrection is the right thing to do

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Quote Originally Posted by PogueMoran View Post
    I'd say you misinterpret what Jefferson said about watering the tree of liberty. You have to take into context what he meant in the full letter along with the historical significance of it.
    I'd say you misinterpreted both Jefferson and me.

    Quote Originally Posted by PogueMoran View Post
    Lets all take the time to read the full quote before deciding what jefferson stated. It was not an open call for insurrection.
    It also was not a condemnation of insurrection. You overlooked a crucial sentence:
    Let them take arms.
    Quote Originally Posted by PogueMoran View Post
    Jefferson's solution to rebellion was to set people right on the facts then pardon them peacefully. He stood for a peaceful solutions not for armed insurrection.
    He also stood for the virtue of rebellion and uprising ("protest", in other words) as a sobering reminder to the government that final power vests in the people.

    Jefferson has a much clearer statement on the matter, the Declaration of Independence:

    Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    Jefferson was not a forceful advocate for armed insurrection as the natural remedy for a nation's political ailments, but he firmly believed that the capacity for rebellion--displayed now and again by a distempered people for whatever wrongs may be apprehended--was the very best check on governmental excess.

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Haven't read through the entire thread yet, but at first glance, this little stunt strikes me as being along the same lines as making bomb jokes while standing in line at the airport. Just plain stupid. Moron deserved to be locked up. What an idiot.




    Gestures, in love, are incomparably more attractive, effective and valuable than words.
    ~ Francois Rabelais

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Where is the outrage over some one calling Obama's daughters names?
    Methinks people are more focused on the death threat part, understandably so.




    Gestures, in love, are incomparably more attractive, effective and valuable than words.
    ~ Francois Rabelais

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    'The blood of Patriots and Tyrants.'

    Aw, yes, the sign. I was wondering when that was going to come up.

    IMO - the armed jackass holding that sing was not a patriot. Why? For one thing there is not Tyrant that I know of on the entire North American Continent. There is a democratically elected American president who ran on a liberal platform of expanding government in specific areas. A patriot, a reasonable, sensible American patriot, whether he voted for this liberal candidate or not, respects the Constitution and the election process.

    No, American, Thomas Jefferson would not disagree with me.

    The jamoke with the sign was out to make a point about the 2nd amendment. He holds that extreme delusion that Obama is going to dismantle the Constitution and take away his guns.

    An intelligent, reasonable patriot knows that is just not the case. A moderately liberal expansion of government in certain areas, perhaps; but that is hardly a Tyrant.

    The loser got off easy IMO. Some psychiatric counseling and basic course in American civics should be ordered.
    Obama wants more government power over the people. Only tyrannts want that.
    Last edited by American; 08-15-09 at 09:53 AM.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: 'Death to Obama' sign holder in Md. detained

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Obama wants more government power over the people. Only tyrannts want that.
    Tyrants like FDR, Kennedy, Reagan & almost all Presidents?

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